dead fish, white spots on glass

dogszncatsz · 02-11-2008, 08:07 PM

I came home from work today to find my happy, healthy 20 gallon freshwater tank full of dead fish. 3 of 7 to be exact. The tank has been established for probably 6 years one of the casualties was an upside down catfish that was an original to the tank. I recently added another clown loach and a honey sunset gouromi ( about 3 weeks ago), everything seemed normal. Both of my clowns and the catfish died. They seemed to have a white or grey film on their bodys and it looked thick over their eyes. Another fish in the tank seemed to have lots of little white spots, so many that it almost looked like a film. That same fish had thin red streaks on its body too. He was living, but I removed him. The honey sunset has a few little white spots and there are 2 corys that seem to be ok, but their color makes it very hard to tell. What could be so fast to kill them? Could the new fish have had a parasite that I didn't notice? What about ICH? I have several plants in the tank and I added a new one along with the honey sunset and clown could this have anything to do with it? I really don't test the water because I haven't had any issues for years. There is some algea, but what I would call normal growth. I just went to take another look at the tank and I think I'm seeing those little white spots on the glass?!?! HELP!

cichlidgirl · 02-11-2008, 08:23 PM

It could be several things. Two stand out to me but more info and pics would be very helpful, otherwise we are just guessing by your description. Sounds bacterial or ick. the cloudy eyes and red streaking suggest bacterial. Ick when in advanced stages can cover extremely large areas of the body and cause damage to the slime coat causing it to appear "filmy". The fact that you recently introduced new fish also could have introduced Ick. Have they been "flashing" on the bottom of the tank or decoration? Flashing is rubbing their body against things in an attempt to scratch off what is irratating them. How often do you do water changes? and how much do you do ? What temp do you keep the water at? A testing of the water would also be helpful, ph, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, some LFS (Local fish shops)will test your water for you for free. There are several people more experienced in diseases than me, so hopefully some will chime in.

CG

dogszncatsz · 02-11-2008, 09:19 PM

I haven't noticed flashing, but there are only plants no decorations. They all hang out at the bottom and in the plants so I may not notice if they were using the gravel. I don't do frequent water changes maybe once a month or two months when I scrape the noticeable algea from the glass and usually at least 25%. Most of the time I'll do 25%, fill up, do another 25%. It's probably been more than a month right now. I'll admit I've typically had such good luck with everything in that tank I kind of let it run itself. What I'm saying is the tank isn't very clean right now, but thats not unusual. Maybe its just caught up to me. I try to keep the temp 72-74, I think it may get down to 68-70 during the cold winter months (like now). I'll get the H2O tested and get back. I'm not sure if I can get a decent picture. Thanks!!

Loman · 02-11-2008, 09:41 PM

I think a water test would be very important. I am not trying to challenge you here; however, based on what you are saying regarding maintenance I would expect nitrAtes to be through the roof. I would not be surprised if it was above the ability of the test kit to read. If they are as high as I fear then the cycle can get fairly messed up and you start to see accumulation of ammonia and nitrItes. While nitrates generally are not considered toxic at extreme levels they cause problems too. Any presence of Nitrite and Ammonia will cause issues. If the water quality is poor then many diseses can take hold. Also one of the issues when ammonia or Nitrite poisoning is a bleeding particularly around the gills. I fear that your prolong wait between water changes may be the root of much of this problem and it just finally caught up with you. If that is the case you can fix the situation by a more regular schedule of maintence

cichlidgirl · 02-11-2008, 09:51 PM

you should be doing more water changes, fresh dechlorinated water is very important. If you are not vacuming and replacing the water then you will have alot of waste in the tank, in the substrate etc.. Dirty water conditions are often associated with bacterial infections. You should be doing the size waterchanges you said you do every two weeks or so, the plants you have will only remove so much of the nitrate. I do weekly water changes but not everyone does, i feel it heads off many problems before they can get a hold.

Do a water Change as soon as possiable , get back to us with the water test results when you get them. I would also consider starting treatment right away with a product called melafix by API . It is good for bacterial infections and also repairing damaged fins and injuries, preventing secondary infections. It is a tee tree oil based product that will not harm anything and works on a broad range of problems and conditions. It will not harm the fish if you follow the dosing directions carefully and can start the treatment earlier if it is bacterial, if it is ick it will not have any effect on the fish and they will not improve. After a day or two if that is the case i would discontinue the melafix, follow directions to clear it from the tank and do the salt remedy for ick that is located in the article section of this site (upper left corner). These instructions are based on if we are not able to find someone that can make a specific diagnoses that is not bacterial or ick related.

Do the water changes and get the melafix and get back to us on if there is any improvement.

Tommy Gun · 02-11-2008, 11:12 PM

Hey dogszncatsz - welcome to the forum!

Quote:

Ick when in advanced stages can cover extremely large areas of the body and cause damage to the slime coat causing it to appear "filmy".

I do not agree with this assesment at all....our fishes' slime coat is what helps them prevent ich from hosting on them so in general, the fishes' slime coat was probably already inadequate at the time of infestation. Additionally, a fish will continually produce a slime coat so it is not like the ich pokes any sort of permanant hole in it. In fact, once ich has begun to host on a fish, the fish will inadvertantly protect it so if anything, the fish's slime coat may actually improve because of ich.

Anyways, what does cause our fish to appear as though there is a 'filmy' coating is Velvet - a different topic than ich but is similar in treatment. To be honest, I have noticed that loaches and other scaleless fish seem to have the most problems with velvet (not a scientific measurement that I know of, just an observation).

The red streaking is also an indicator of Septicemia, a pretty serious internal bacteria infection...in fact, I think humans can get a very similar thing (blood poisoning). If you find out that you need to treat your remaining fish for this problem, the best bet is to use a medicinal soak so that you can spike the fishes' food with antibiotics....primarily becasue this is an internal issue. With that in mind...

Quote:

It is a tee tree oil based product that will not harm anything and works on a broad range of problems and conditions.

...I don't think that Melafix is going to do you all that much good in this situation. I wouldn't really call Melafix harmless either. Keep in mind that dosing any chemical into your tank should be done with caution. Obviously you do not want to overdose your tank (I wiped out my entire reef tank with a dose of both melafix and pimafix...but that is just my own experience and I am sure others have enjoyed different results) and adding this pseudo-med may reduce the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water which your fish obviously need.

Quote:

I'll get the H2O tested and get back.

Because of the way you have been approaching your tank, I strongly suggest that you perform a series of smaller water changes over the course of the next few days instead of making one big water change. Obviously your fish have grown quite accustomed to what must be less than ideal water conditions and changing that as rapidly as we can in an aquarium can lead to big problem and can be the equivalent of moving the fish to an entirely new tank. Even if your fish do survive something like a big change in water chemistry, they will certainly endure some stress; making them more vulnerable to illness/disease.

Quote:

You should be doing the size waterchanges you said you do every two weeks or so, the plants you have will only remove so much of the nitrate.

I am not 100% sure about the plant/nitrate portion of this statement, but I would assume that the plants can use a sizeable amount of it. Why else would anyone gain such large benifit from a refugium. However, I completely agree that this is not an excuse for not doing water changes on a regular basis. Once again though, please understand that cichlidgirl's advice here is a very vague generalization and you may find out that your tank needs larger or more frequent water changes. The best bet is to monitor your water parameters, especially nitrate, and perform a water change when nitrates reach a pre-determined limit. Over time you will start to see a pattern and from there you can set up a scheduled routine. There are simply too many variables to consider for anyone to say "you have to change X-gallons of water ever X-number of days" without knowing a lot more information about your specific situation.

dogszncatsz · 02-12-2008, 10:16 PM

Well, I got the water tested at the fish store and surprisingly enough the water is ok. He told me the nitrAte was a bit high but still within a safe level (between 20-40). I was also surprised that when I was looking over the tank I no longer see the white spots on the glass and the white spots on the honey sunset are gone too. I have done a water change and will probably do another tomorrow or Thursday and then, of course, much more frequently from here on out. I really prefer not to treat the tank unless I know for sure what is going on so I'm waiting on that.
I have other tanks too, so I'm wondering if my algea sponge or the vaccum thing will contaminate them? Should I just replace them or is there a cleaning method that will work even though I'm not sure of the problem.
Thanks for all the input!

Tommy Gun · 02-13-2008, 10:40 AM

Well, that is some pretty good news! As everyone has already pointed out, water changes are going to be your best ally since water quality is connected tightly to our fishes' health.

There is some chance that you could inadvertantly transport some problems from one tank to another via your equipment, but I believe that you can significantly lower the risk by simply letting them dry out. Of course, if you know that one of your tanks is currently experiencing health issues, it may be a good idea to avoid using the same equipment....but I do not know of any issue where you would need to completely throw away anything that came in contact with it.