Suspect Fish TB in all 3 Tanks. Advise Please!

[88cupfan]

I have put down 4 Fish of various types in the last few months,2 danios and 2 bloodfin tetras. All began to be deformed with crooked spines and then wasted away. after googling the desease I found out that the microb is now ever present in my tanks and that it can actually be transmitted to me. The reccomendation is that I dispose of all my fish, bleach the tanks and equipment and start all over since TB can be contacted through any small abrasion of the skin. I could use rubber gloves but my 60 gal tank is to deep for them and I just dont like the thought of something so potentially dangerous in my home.

Had I known of this potential threat I would not have even started this hobby. Its obvious that this disease is more common than most will admit.

I'm hoping that one of our moderators has a great deal of knowlege about Fish TB and will share it with us

[Nereaga]

Thats crazy! I would like to know more myself!!

[Tommy Gun]

I'm hoping that one of our moderators has a great deal of knowledge about Fish TB and will share it with us

Sorry to pick on you a little bit 88cupfan, but please let me clear up any confusion that may exist about the role of moderators on this forum...while I realize that some of the other moderators are certainly experts in multiple facets of the hobby, one does not become a moderator simply because of what he/she knows or is an 'expert' in. My point being that I hope we are not discounting any advice, info, ideas, suggestions, etc. that are given by members who are not moderators and/or looking solely to moderators for any and every answer. Of course, we all love to participate in the forum and hence, we post both questions and answers, but this really has little to do with moderation.

That being said, I will seemingly contradict myself and let you know that I have also dealt with fish TB on one instance...and I am sure, to the chagrin of a few people in this world, I am still alive.

While there is a TON of supposed information regarding this disease on the internet, and of course, much of it contradicts another, the most prevalent thinking (based upon what I have read) is that Fish TB is very rarely transmitted to aquarists and in fact, humans can become infected by simply swimming in a natural water source (i.e. lakes, streams, oceans, etc...) or even by taking a bath/shower while using a poorly treated water source. My understanding is that the bacteria which is commonly thought to cause or otherwise be associated with Fish TB is rather easily killed by chlorine. In almost every seemingly reliable resource I have ever read on this subject, the idea/fact (?) that any human with a reasonably healthy immune system is almost always able to stave off an infection of fish TB and hence, it is those who have a weakened immune system (due to any number of reasons) who should be most concerned about this topic.

To add further to the discussion, the following is what I have read/heard - meaning it may not be what I feel to be true (I am obviously not educated enough to tell the difference):

Some resources state that fish TB either cannot or is even more rarely transmitted to humans via freshwater livestock - suggesting that saltwater tanks are more of a concern; albeit slightly so.

Becoming infected with fish TB only via unbroken skin contact (through the various methods of transmission) is nearly unheard of in healthy people

Additionally, even healthy, properly cared for aquarium fish (to include fish that are farmed for food...as in fish we might eat) can 'fight off' a fish TB infection

Prevention
There are many other issues/illnesses which can be transmitted to humans - some of which are minor, some major, but in almost all cases, there are many ways to prevent infection/problems, to include, but certainly not limited to:

Do not place any part of your body in an aquarium which is known to be infected.

Do not start a siphon vac with your mouth OR do not ingest any aquarium water...probably to include allowing any other pets such as dogs, cats, etc.. to ingest aquarium water.

Do not place any part of your body which has cuts, scrapes, or otherwise broken skin in an aquarium

Maintaining healthy fish will go far to help reduce the risk of an illness/disease being transmitted to you

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I guess my 'take' on this subject is that there are risks associated with anything in life and this hobby is not the exception. While I would never attempt to downplay any of the risks associated with the hobby, I don't feel as though the risks are so huge to suggest that we all avoid fish-keeping as if it was the plague.

I do, however, agree that without any better option or more educated advice, euthanizing your fish, sterilizing your tank(s) and equipment, and 'starting over' is the most common advice I have read thus far. Granted, I know this is harsh advice, and when I searched for a 'better' alternative, I found that the reason this advice is so common is simply because the sort of aggressive treatment that would otherwise be needed would require a lot of time and money since it would almost certainly require the assistance of a vet or higher equivalent who can actually supply the medication(s) and administer them correctly - which sounds to be powerful medications administered via injections.

Again, just to clear up any confusion that might occur after reading this:

1. I am not and do not claim to be any sort of 'expert' on Fish TB or any other illness/disease

2. I am simply 'spitting back' some of the info/ideas that I have read; meaning I did not formulate it on my own accord

3. I am not implying that every comment and/or piece of information that I have spoken of is 100% accurate, nor am I trying to suggest which resources are reliable or unreliable sources of information - I am sure that we all have realized/begun to realize that one problem with this hobby is that conflicting information is extremely common and hence, it is hard to know what info to believe. To add to that, since pretty much anyone with a computer and a desire to create a website - meaning you do not need a doctorate's degree to post 'information' - the internet can sometimes be problematic when trying to research and/or validate a hypothesis.

4. I am not trying to imply that my comments/input here is the 'end all - be all' finale to this conversation

[cichlidgirl]

How common is fish tb? what are the fish's symptoms? Does the fish develop the symptoms and continue to eat and live in the tank for prolonged times or die within days?

[88cupfan]

Thanks TOMMY GUN for your reply. Your info has helped allot and has convinced me to move forward by massecring my remaining fish and bleaching my tanks. Hard way to put it but true none the less.


There are a number of symptoms of fish TB, all of which are symptoms of other diseases also except for one- a deformed spine. In fact, to my experience, the deformed spine was the only symptom that I noticed. 2 of my fish started showing signs of stress soon after I noticed a curvature and stopped eating but my Blood fins just kept acting normally, eating, swimming with the others and such for at least 2 months until I finally found out what was wrong and removed them from my tank. I just figured that like humans, we all have flaws. Then I became suspicious and looked deeper into the situation.

The problem has to be prevalent because the microbe is very hard to get rid of. I have had 2 varieties of fish come to my home already infected which means that every fish that passes through the same tanks at the LFS has been exposed. And what are the odds that the LFS has or ever will clean all their tanks out with bleach solution and start over even if they become aware of a problem.

It just surprises me that warnings of this potential problem isn't more prevalent is forums such as this. Yes, we all read advise to have quarantine tanks and such but I didn't know there was a disease like this that could wipe out your entire stock of fish and potentially the fish keeper. I thought that I could treat any problem found, diagnosed and treated swiftly, and continue on. I now have to rid my tanks of about 200 bucks of fish and cycle my tanks again. You can bet that I will not put any fish into my 60 gallon tank until they have been in a smaller tank for months without any problems. Obviously, with the large number of fish that I keep in it, a problem such as this is very costly.

[Tommy Gun]

all of which are symptoms of other diseases also except for one- a deformed spine.

Sorry to disagree with you 88cupfan, but I feel that it is very important to know that this comment of yours is not exactly true...there are, in fact, quite a few reasons for a fish to have an overly curved and/or 'deformed' spine.

Perhaps one of the reasons for a deformed spine that we are most apt to notice in aquarium type fish are birth defects...some of which are genetic in nature and hence, it is possible to have an entire tank full of fish which show this symptom. There are also a few different reasons for this to occur - for example, over breeding or inbreeding can result in this spine abnormality and in fact, this is sometimes a planned effect, such as some of the 'fancy' goldfish and a couple types of mollies.

Another reason for a deformed spine is a lack of Vitamin C in a fish's diet - which may be more rare in aquarium fish these days due to most of us offering a varied diet and from the better 'engineered' prepared foods we can buy.

Point being...a curved spine does not automatically mean a diagnosis of Fish TB is 100% accurate in every case. This is why is it important to consider every symptom over all before 'massacring' any fish...HOWEVER, I agree that we should all 'hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst' and take action to protect ourselves, and other fish, from the worst case scenario...in your case, Fish TB.

And what are the odds that the LFS has or ever will clean all their tanks out with bleach solution and start over even if they become aware of a problem

Don't get me wrong here...I empathize with you completely - however, after reading the information I have on this subject, it really sounds as though the microbe or bacteria which causes/contributes to Fish TB can be found in water alone; meaning, it does have to be in a fish or a human or any other living creature in order for us to become exposed to it. That being said, it also sounds that most, if not all, people who have studied this truly believe that the best way to avoid this problem is to ensure that our fish are healthy since a healthy fish's immune system (and even a healthy human's immune system) can 'fight off' an infection. As always, the best 'cure' sounds to be as simple as prevention. My reasoning for pointing this out is because, while I agree whole-heartedly with you in that we should all be aware of every risk associated with fish-keeping, Fish TB is not exactly on par with SARS or Bird Flu in that an epidemic is on the horizon (again, which I am basing on what I have read in the past, and even more so, within the past two days)

So, should we be concerned about Fish TB? Absolutely. Scared of Fish TB? IMHO and IME, not really.

[88cupfan]

OK, so maybe I'm over reacting here. But can you tell me what the most prevalent symptoms I should see combined with the deformed spines?

[Tommy Gun]

Originally Posted by 88cupfan

OK, so maybe I'm over reacting here. But can you tell me what the most prevalent symptoms I should see combined with the deformed spines?

Well, since there seems to be a lot of 'wiggle room' regarding the difference between fact and fiction as it relates to Fish TB, I can at least try to list the symptoms which most of the resources I have read agree upon:

- discolored spots and/or patches on the fish's skin/scales
- fish stops eating
- fish 'gasping' for air
- cloudy and/or pop-eye-like eyes
- fish is lethargic (rests on the substrate a lot)
- fish appears to be starved/stomach area looks sunken
- fish is suddenly very reclusive
- fin and tail rot-like symptoms
- and of course, the bent spine

What I understand is that some of these symptoms become apparent rather slowly and a fish can live for quite a while before it finally succumbs to the illness - even when the fish seems to be so sick that it cannot swim and just 'rests' on the substrate.

I have also read a few more bits of information on fish TB and am becoming more and more amazed at the extreme lack of solid information on this illness...and/or if there is a lot of info, I am amazed at how hard it is to choose what to believe or not. For example, one resource I read last night clearly stated that the bacteria thrives in lower temperatures and hence, it may help to raise the water temp while another will say the bacteria thrives in temps in the range of 90 degrees. Obviously the problem with that is I don't know which one to believe, however, the one which stated that raising the water temp would help came from a resource which was completely unrelated to this hobby - a medical website to be exact - so that may add some credence to its advice.

In fact, I just looked back at a website I bookmarked last night and one of the first things it brings up is that this is not a very contagious illness...which might be really good news for you and the rest of us. In all honesty, I would not be surprised to hear that out of all the fish in your tank, only a handful show any signs of Fish TB while the others seem completely fine so you might be able to do yourself a favor and continue to ensure that you are providing the best possible environment for your fish regardless of your thinking it is already to late for them all.

Speaking of environments, I am starting to wonder how many fish you may have in your tank since as you put it, I now have to rid my tanks of about 200 bucks of fish and with the large number of fish that I keep in it. The reason why I ask this is because, as I have already pointed out, healthy fish can usually fight off an Fish TB episode and, as we all know, water quality has a large impact stress and a fish's immune system. While I am no way trying to imply that your tank is overstocked or that you don't know what you are doing with your husbandry, I still wanted to find out a bit more regarding your entire situation since that might provide more insight.
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By the way...after thinking about this thread and particularly some of your comments regarding hobbyists often times being oblivious to the risks of Fish TB, among others, I wanted to extent the opportunity for you to make a difference by writing up some information/ideas so that we might be able to post it on the forum, either as an article or 'sticky'. To be fair though, I have to point out that I have brought this up to the other moderators right after my last post and have only received a reply from GM333, I cannot guarantee that the remaining mods will feel as though this an article/sticky is a great idea - nor can I guarantee that, if you do submit something on Fish TB, it will be used in its entirety or will not be edited to some degree for one reason or another. If you do decide to take this opportunity (or anyone else for that matter), please email or use the forum's PM feature to forward any information, ideas, or questions to a moderator; at which time we will review what you have and get back to you as soon as possible.

[88cupfan]

A Thank You for your work to find more info Tommy Gun.

As for the water quality- my 60 Gal tank gets at least a 50 % water change
whenever the Nitrate level reaches 40 ppm, which is about every 3 weeks. Other parameters always stay consistent. I have been keeping 25-30 Tetras and Danios of various species along with a couple of Glass cats and Plecos. I have an Emperor 280 HOB with Bio-wheel, extra carbon basket and extended to within a couple inches above the gravel. Also, a Rena XP2 canister with Bio-Max and mechanical filtration only. My municipal water is provided by a 2 yr old plant- 150 hardness, 7.2 pH with no nitrites, nitrates or phosphates and is conditioned with API Tap water conditioner before refilling the tank and comes out of the faucet at 74 Deg in the summer time. No other water conditioners are ever added. Gravel substrate with a few live plants from time to time which don't usually do well in my deep tank with only 125 watts of light.

As for the symptoms- 2 of the Danios(GLO-Fish) died within a week of showing a downward curvature in the spine but they looked slightly deformed from the get go. They both became reclusive in the UPPER corner of the tank and then died. I had them for about 3 months. The other infected fish were both Bloodfin Tetras. The curvatures were to one side. One of them died within a couple of weeks of the curvature but acted normally until found at the bottom one morning. The other Bloodfin behaved normally for a few months after showing the curvature and also had some deformation of the head and mouth area. Its bottom lip began to protrude greatly but it still ate just fine. I did notice some discoloration on its side. The normally gray skin turned a beige color and there was a white and beige patch on the side of his head. These patches are what alarmed me enough to look deeper into the problem and I removed the fish. That was about a week ago and all the other fish a doing well.

As for the Sticky suggestion- I really feel unqualified to write something like that but would encourage you to add the info that you have discovered to the disease section of the forum. You are the best resource for info on this disease that I have found and I can't express enough how grateful I am to you for your effort.

[Tommy Gun]

I really feel unqualified to write something like that but would encourage you to add the info that you have discovered to the disease section of the forum

Like I said, I have brought this idea up to the other moderators and would also like to point out that any member who feels as though he or she could add to the forum in this way is more than welcome to do so by contacting a moderator and forward his/her thoughts, ideas, and/or information.

2 of the Danios(GLO-Fish)

While I realize that in your situation, the problem is not solely limited to Glofish, I thought it might be helpful to point out that it is relatively common to find deformed and/or unusually unhealthy Glofish...I believe this is because of two reasons; 1. they are genetically altered fish; meaning there may be a lot of room for error and/or mistakes within the altered DNA and 2. they may be so new, in such high demand, or so expensive to produce (in relation to other fish) that it sounds as though they are rarely, if ever, culled; meaning the levels of 'quality control' are relatively lax. I have also read in a few areas that at least a few states have made it illegal for anyone living there to keep these fish...but it sounds as though this is more due to a desire to curb the popularity of 'playing God' with the DNA.