Some type of bacterial infection

P-Daddy · 09-09-2007, 08:19 AM

I have been experiencing a steady loss in livestock, especially new livestock, over the past several weeks. I have been going utterly insane trying to figure out the cause, as my water quality is essentially perfect, and to make matters worse I have witnessed very few symptoms of illness. Most of the time I notice my new arrivals begin to struggle with swim bladder issues within 24 hours of arriving, or I just find them dead. One day I observed a guppy which appeared to be dead, and already decaying/white. When I went to net her she began to swim vigorously away, still alive. Finally my LFS reimbursed me for one or two of these purchases, saying their supplier has been providing them sick specimens. I let my tank go for another one or two weeks (I apologize I honestly do forget how long) and I experienced no loss in this time period.

Last Saturday I added 7 neon tetra and 1 Kribensis Cichlid. Within 48 hours I had lost at least 4 neons, and by my count I am down to 2 today. My Kribensis, which I bought at the recommendation of some of our forum members, I absolutely love. His colors are amazing in my planted tank. Yesterday at feeding time I noticed him to have what is commonly referred to as "pop eye" on one eye.

From what I have read, pop eye is a symptom of some other bacterial infection, hopefully the same one which has been decimating my livestock. I have been avoiding treatment at all costs, as I do not trust commercial medications very much.

With that said I am looking for some type of diagnosis/treatment of this problem. I would really like to avoid harsh chemical treatments (i.e. copper-based medicines) which may threaten my livestock/plants, or linger in the tank for long periods of time.

Any ideas and suggestions are more than welcome.

Tommy Gun · 09-09-2007, 10:35 AM

Hey P-Daddy...sorry to hear about your troubles.

While I am not really that confident to give any suggestions as to treatments for various diseases/illnesses that would be appropriate in a planted tank, I think one great asset you might want to consider setting up as soon as possible is a quarantine tank...or two. Not only do I think it would behoove you to quarantine new fish, but you may want to remove all of your fish from the planted tank for a few weeks in order to treat them, and see if you can address any lingering issue(s) in your display tank which may require a host (in this case fish) in order to remain. Don't get me wrong, I am not sure if the lingering problem is truly the case here, but IMHO, you obviously would have a much easier time, and probably a wider array of treatment options for your fish in a non-planted tank(s).

It may also help to know a little bit more about what you are experiencing. For example:

What exactly is "essentially perfect" water quality?

How are you acclimating new fish to your tank?

Did the guppy you told us about show signs similar to that of velvet? (maybe try performing a google or yahoo image search)

Do you have any long-standing residents of your tank which seem to be healthy or unaffected by these problems?

Any other information you can give may prove to be helpful so don't hold back!

P-Daddy · 09-09-2007, 11:09 AM

Hey Tommy, thanks for the quick reply

Yes, I know, shame on me for not quarantining

Mmmm, my water params

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 20ppm (for the plants)
PO4: 2ppm
Ph: 7.0
dGh:13
Dkh:5

I acclimate all new arrivals through the "drip method"

I did a quick search on velvet, if it was velvet it was an advanced case of it, as the guppy was very thickly covered (like I said, I actually thought it was rotted)

And I do in fact have quite a few long-standing members of my aquarium which have not been affected. I have lost 3 total members that were around before the problems began. 1 Otto, 1 Cory, and 1 Keyhole Cichlid.

The rest of the stock that has been in there since the tank was created has been largely unaffected.

I am going to look into setting up a hospital/quarantine tank. I have just been trying to save "fun" money for something like new lights and a CO2 system. However inexpensive it may be, I have been hoping to save the money.

Tommy Gun · 09-09-2007, 12:30 PM

In all honesty, I think you may be best served by spending some of your 'fun' money on a q-tank since it doesnt sound like it is all that fun for you to lose fish like you have been. I use a very similar system of budgeting for my fish 'habit' so I know how hard it is to dip into it for something which is seemingly not as exciting as lights or Co2. However, I am willing to bet that a q-tank/ hospital tank might be one of your better investments. Honestly, I am 100% sure I could buy a 10 gallon tank, a heater, and a cheap HOB filter from Walmart or an LFS near me for less than 25 dollars, clone it from one of my established tanks and starting making positive progress by this afternoon if I had a pressing issue.

I apologize if I sound as if I am pressuring you into buying a new tank, but I have to admit in some ways I am and feel comfortable about doing so since q-tanks can be an immense tool for all of us.

P-Daddy · 09-09-2007, 12:46 PM

Oh no Tommy, your not pressuring me at all!

Its good advice, and I don't mean to seem ignorant to it. To be honest I have recognized the value of such an investment for a long time, and frankly this situation is teaching me a lesson.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to invest in setting one up this afternoon. I also understand it wouldn't be a terrible expense, especially since some supplies can be used for both.

I do however feel that I may want to consider treating this tank regardless, I am not sure if whatever this tank is afflicted with would leave with the fish.

I wouldn't be as worried about maintaining my biological filter (I'd just dose pure ammonia) as I would be about removing Ottos, Amano Shrimp etc that keep my plants healthy and algae free. It may not make a difference, but it may also set me back big time in my war against algae.

I am currently considering giving Pimafix a shot, supposedly it uses all natural ingredients and is fish/plant/invert "safe." I am not entirely comfortable with it, but so far it seems to be the least harsh out of everything I have seen. I do notice that you can actually buy penicilin amoxicilin etc. for fish. What concerns me is the fact that these antibiotics are specifically for killing bacteria....would this include the beneficial kind??

Thanks for everything though Tommy, I do appreciate the advice!

Tommy Gun · 09-09-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

I do however feel that I may want to consider treating this tank regardless, I am not sure if whatever this tank is afflicted with would leave with the fish.

If this was not a planted tank, I would have suggested the same, but without my knowing very much about planted tanks, I would feel terrible if I suggested something which led to more problems. For example...

Quote:

I wouldn't be as worried about maintaining my biological filter (I'd just dose pure ammonia) as I would be about removing Ottos, Amano Shrimp etc that keep my plants healthy and algae free. It may not make a difference, but it may also set me back big time in my war against algae.

I am not sure what the ramifications might be about algae control in a planted tank without the aid of fish and inverts...however, it must be possible since I know of at least one person who has an aquarium which holds nothing but plants - no fish or inverts. I have PMed a couple people who I know who can help you better than I can so hopefully they can follow the link and chime in here soon.

Quote:

I do notice that you can actually buy penicilin amoxicilin etc. for fish. What concerns me is the fact that these antibiotics are specifically for killing bacteria....would this include the beneficial kind??

Admittedly, I dont know all of the ins and outs about this, but my understanding is that not all antibiotics are created equally in that some have a only treat a specific type of bacteria...such as gram-positive versus gram-negative bacteria. If you can give me a little time, I will try to take a closer look at what antibiotics might harm benificial bacteria and which won't, but my gut feeling here is that, since you dont really know what you are treating specifically, an antibiotic which does not harm 'good bacteria' may also not harm one or two of the issues you are currently experiencing.

Obviously, this is all just another strong case for a q-tank since you wouldn't have to worry about uncycling your main tank, so to speak.
=========================

Ok, got a little more information for you...

The Nitrosomonas europea (not the best resource, I know, but easy to understand) bacteria - which is responsible for the oxidation of ammonia to nitrites - is a gram-negative bacteria. It appears as though many of the more popular antibiotics that can be found in our LFS do treat for gram-negative bacteria, which I assume would cause problems as far as maintaining a cycled aquarium. However, maracyn (not maracyn two) is apparently an antibiotic which treats only gram-positive bacteria so that may be a better alternative for use in a display tank. However, as I said before, I am not sure at all how plants might change that thinking.

The good news though is that maracyn treats pop eye, which you say might be at least one of the issues you are facing.

I also just read a little bit more information on velvet since I once had an experience with a clown loach that looked to be very much dead and decayed, but still alive and noticed that it is very dependant on light, so I wonder if velvet is more likely or more of a problem to treat in a planted tank since, obviously, there are high levels of light.

P-Daddy · 09-09-2007, 01:50 PM

Tommy this information is tremendously helpful! Thanks so much for spending so much time on this!

I too am grinding out some research while I try to watch football.

Jay · 09-10-2007, 08:09 AM

I have used erythromycin (a broad spectrum antibiotic) in the past to deal with cyano bacteria, and it did not bother my plants, bio filter, Ottos, or Cory cats. I am not certain how it would affect inverts. It is expensive!

Looks like you have eliminated everything except a toxin of some kind or a bacterial problem. I know your tank, so IMO it is not an osmotic paroblem.

I had some polished stone in a big beta bowl once that were responsible for killing three betas before we figured it out. I still do not know what was going on but the removal of the stones solved the problem.

If you treat with erythromycin, I would treat the whole tank fish and all, buy enough to go for at least 10 days. <- My Physician recommended that. You do not want to create a drug resistant bacteria in the tank.

Jay

Tommy Gun · 09-10-2007, 12:43 PM

Hey Jay! Thanks for clearing that up for us (I was getting pretty curious to know what you might say).

Otherwise, I just wanted to point out that Maracyn (not maracyn two or maracyn-TC) is erythromycin - Jay had helped me out in the past with a cyano problem and this stuff worked very well.

P-Daddy · 09-10-2007, 06:00 PM

I am going to probably pick up some Maracyn and give it a shot.

I am curious though, I have polished stones in my tank that had been from some type of floral arrangement before this.