How can Cycle be harmful to my aquarium experience?

[Tommy Gun]

[Tommy Gun]

[Jay]

Congratulations

You guys have moved this topic to the level of tedious and silly. This is a forum of 80% newbies and 10% "know it alls" with 10% left over to be reasonable.

Do you really expect that the majority or members are benefiting from this topic with quotes like these being thrown about.

How would you remove nitrate from a solution of water, without removing the bacteria as well? That is my point

We all should know better than that, the good guys do not live in the water column

To fish, yea. I couldn't say that about bacteria but would assume that since they can live anywhere, Ph doesn't affect them all that much.

Actually we all should know that is not true.

However, I suspect that such a large company like Hagen/Nutrafin is under quite a bit of pressure to 'do what they say' by our government and others

Really? If they mislead you by saying "necessary" or "essential" bacteria, and are really referring to other than nitrifying bacteria, that is not a truth in labeling problem.

I also think that if you can do a test like this to make them look like the liars you are implying that they are, then they would have been shot down a long long time ago.

The "Snake Oil" fish tank market is not regulated by anybody!!! Cycle has
been a suspect product in fish communities since introduced, a lot of clever marketing jargon no real or anecdotal advantages being reported out there in experienced hobby land.

I agree with Tommy and BJP when they say that a lot of "snake oil" miracle additives are just not necessary to be successful in this hobby.

Let me add this...I am a Super Moderator...that means I have the Big
Red button . This thread is not productive, informative or in keeping with our ethic of teaching and nurturing folks needing information and help, and more advanced folks looking for in depth exploratory discussion.

Get MY Drift???

Regards,
Jay

[BJP]

This thread is not productive, informative or in keeping with our ethic of teaching and nurturing folks needing information and help, and more advanced folks looking for in depth exploratory discussion.

I agree boss, one final math bit just to point out the harm to newbies. The actual reccomended dosage on the side of the bottle is 10mL per 10 gallons on set up repeated seven days apart. For a 55 gallon tank holding approximately 50 gallons of water that would be 150 mL or approximately 5 ounces in the first two weeks alone. With a little math that translates out to having a 2.5ppm to 5ppm nitrate reading after only two weeks. That's not getting carried away and dumping the whole bottle in assuming you had a bottle large enough to supply 5 ounces. That may confuse newbies into thinking the tank is ready for fish.

There's another thread active now where a newbie aquired a bottle of Cycle and test kits and posted a nitrate reading of 20 while so far not posting a nitrate reading for the source water. That led to my desire to spend a little money and show that the nitrate reading everyone's fussing over may have come from the bottle of Cycle entirely or in part. The discussion here was to avoid cluttering that thread up.

That being said, I'll go quietly into the night and choose another time to point tommy toward a little research on coil denitraters, live plants, micropore media and such and their ability to remove nitrate from a water source.

[Tommy Gun]

[Loman]

Before Jay hits the big red button, the one general point that I think this discussion flirts with is that people dump a lot of different chemical that may or may not be properly labeled into the tank. In general I think everyone needs to consider carefully what they pour into a tank and if it is really needed. I do not think any product (chemical) can be added in excessive amounts without some impact. We discuss the characteristics of the source water often because of the potential impact and hopefully it is less chemical than the quick fix items people tend to use. The general point that I would take away is to be careful with what chemicals get added and at what dosage. Personally I like to avoid the chemicals if at all possible and try and solve the root of the problem.

[Jay]

Before Jay hits the big red button, the one general point that I think this discussion flirts with is that people dump a lot of different chemical that may or may not be properly labeled into the tank. In general I think everyone needs to consider carefully what they pour into a tank and if it is really needed.

Well said!!! and actually it is really a small red button

Happy New Year!!

Regards,
Jay

[BJP]

Quote:
We all should know better than that, the good guys do not live in the water column
are a reply taken to something out of context. I was trying to point out that there is no substrate in the bottle of cycle and so the bacteria must be in the water or other solution that is in the bottle.

I suspect both Tommy and Jay are right. Bacteria develop on solid surfaces like Jay says and the product (only talking about one here) is sold as a liquid. I would imagine that if I was trying to develop a bacteria in quantities large enough to sell I would choose a wet dry type environment to maximize the availible oxygen while using the liquid to supply the ammonia. That liquid could then easily have the nitrate removed if desired or just be excluded entirely from the packaging process which would have to use some means to get the bacteria from their solid surfaces into a liquid holder for bottling.

I read something on Wetmans site about a discussion with the company trying to justify their addition of ammonia to the final product. I wasn't involved so I'll reserve comment on that part but if they claim to have to add ammonia then that implys to me that the original solution containing the ammonia and nitrate isn't used. It also is rather suspicious to me that the nitrate concentration is just high enough that when used according to the instructions on the bottle, that that particular concentration of nitrate is just strong enough to show up on the tests at just the right time that I would expect to see a result if I believed the bacteria in the bottle was doing anything to speed things up, yet not so high as to show up earlier or in larger amounts to make me suspicious of it being added directly from the product itself.

Question Jay, you used the phrase "snake oil'. I've only seen one person commonly use that term. That leads me to believe you've had interaction with RTR in the past or at least read some of his postings about the product. Am I guessing correctly?

[Jay]

Yes, RTR and Tom Barr both use that term frequently. These are two guys that really impress me.

However, back to the product(s) one may have some merit, at least anecdotally supported, the other is just cleverly worded "marketing speak".

I do not use them, and see no need to spend money on a product designed to shortcut good husbandry practices.

Oh and hey Tom I'M sorry I did take that quote out of context I completely misunderstood your point.

Jay