My pH is Out of Control

Edicson · 07-21-2009, 03:08 PM

So, i talked to this guy i met at the fishstore a while ago and he had told me he adds salt to his fresh water fish. He said that his fish grow a lot healthier and with brighter colors. i didnt believe him, i was like why would you add salt to fresh water fish, but he said he has been doing it for over 7 years and he has like 4 or 5 tanks in his house, so i was like ok and we left it at that.
so i just got some aquarium salt for my betta because he was showing stress signs and i read that a little salt would help. so i figured salt reduces stress, makes sense what the guy had told me. then i further read that the salt adds electrolytes to the water which the fish need. so its starting to make sense what the guy told me. so i added some salt to my fish tank.
I was doing rutine test on the tank yesterday, everything came out fine, but the PH IS OFF THE CHART...literaly, my chart only measures to 7.6. so i added a bunch of ph down and lowered it a bit, then i came back home later in the night and added a little more, got the ph to 7. this was about 2 in the morning.
i tested it again about 3pm and its giving readings between 7.2 and 7.6
What should i do?
right now the fish look ok, but i know in the long run its going to hurt them.

Jay · 07-21-2009, 06:14 PM

You have two questions going on here. I have a little time to talk about salt. IMO salt (NaCl aka aquarium salt aka table salt) does not belong in a FW aquarium. I am willing to debate that all night, but from your post I think you have a misconception.

When we discuss a healthy GH, we need to go further than Ca, which is all a hobby test kit measures and include a ratio of Mg at least to 25%. We also need to consider the necessity of electrolytes which are essential for healthy fish and plant cell function. Another word for electrolytes is "Mineral Salts" not to be confused with aquarium salt.
Mineral salts are trace elements. NaCl is found in fresh water in very small traces and is an essential electrolyte, in larger doses, like adding it by the teaspoon full, it is harmful to FW plants and critters.

It has its uses such as the temporary increase of NaCl to kill off parasites like Ick.

The myth of using salt (NaCl) has been around for a long time and is unfounded other than anecdotal stories and testimonials. Do some reading on osmosis and see what happens to the cells of a fw organism in a saltwater environment.

Jay

Edicson · 07-22-2009, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

NaCl is found in fresh water in very small traces and is an essential electrolyte, in larger doses, like adding it by the teaspoon full, it is harmful to FW plants and critters.
Do some reading on osmosis and see what happens to the cells of a fw organism in a saltwater environment.

Jay

ok, so i guess that clears up whether i should have salt or not in the tank.
and you would think that by now i would have learn the lesson of doing the researcg before i do anything to the tank.
so what should i do now that i already have it in there, should i perform large water changes,2 days back to back, 70-80%?
is the ph going way high due to the salt?

louistheloach · 07-22-2009, 10:17 AM

No the pH should not be affected by the salt level. No I would not do large water changes back to back. And I would toss the pH up/down stuff.

IME the pH testers are unreliable and seem to expire naturally faster than other test kits.

Until you get comfortable with knowing what your water is doing, I would regularly test the GH, KH along with the other parameters. After while your experience will be able to guide you. I would also switch to a product by seachem called livebearer salt for your tank. Jay told my about it, and I have found it to work pretty well. You can find it online, but some LFS will be able to special order it. There are instructions on the label for general aquarium use, follow that.

There are a couple of things that will affect the pH:

If your water naturally has a high KH, it will tend to keep the pH high and it will be harder to bring it down and keep it down. The products (like what you used) just don't work and bringing the pH down too fast is very stressful on the fish, it will even kill some aquatic inhabitants, like shrimp. And, your water will creep back up to it's normal level.......so it is an ongoing up/down, up/down thing......not good.

The process of denitrifying your water also increases the pH.

most fish will naturally adapt to a higher pH, for some it will be harder on them but generally most will live in a pH that is higher than what is listed for them. One way to help control the pH is when you do water changes try diluting your tap water with a gallon or two of purchased purified water which has a neutral pH (7.0) you would probably have to add the LB salt to this at the listed rate. If your water is really high in minerals and you use a small ratio of purified water to tap water, you should not have to add anything to the purified water besides your mineral salt. Remember you are adding salt based on the size of the water change you are performing, not the size of the tank.

If you don't know what the water content is in your area, you should be able to call the local plant and ask them what the water pH and other parameters are. It might be good to know this before you start adding things. The mineral content will vary from region to region. Adjust what you supplement in the tank by what is already in there.

You can also help control the pH by the addition of CO2. I mentioned in another post about making your own CO2 bottle using yeast and replenishing it every few weeks. Good for the pH and the plants. Very inexpensive. If you go that route do not use instant or quick acting bakers yeast. Just get the regular yeast, loose form, not in a cake, keep the extra in the freezer, it will not expire there. This lowers the pH because it is an acid that you are putting in the tank (a high pH is alkaline).

Don't panic, don't make drastic changes.

ltl

Jay · 07-26-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

One way to help control the pH is when you do water changes try diluting your tap water with a gallon or two of purchased purified water which has a neutral pH (7.0) you would probably have to add the LB salt to this at the listed rate.

IMO if you are going to use purified, distilled, RO you also need to restore GH. Seachem's Equilibrium is designed to do just that.

Jay

louistheloach · 07-26-2009, 03:05 PM

Okay Jay,

so I just want to think about this a little more......

On a thirty gallon tank doing a 25% water change would be 7.5 gallons (probably rounded up to 8)....so lets say he is using tap that appears to be rich. Would diluting it with 1-2 gallons of purified water and adding LB salt (which is a mineral salt), really require the addition of more minerals.

It just seems like that would be a fairly small dilution rate, with some minerals being put back in by the LB salt. If we were talking a larger portion of purified water replacing the tap, I would agree. Is there a little margin here to work with?

ltl

Jay · 07-26-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Is there a little margin here to work with?

Sure. I add Equilibrium at every water change just to be sure my GH, Mg and Ca are available in quantities my plants need. The live bearer salt allows for specific adjustment for say Guppies etc. I do not use it as a general additive to my community tanks only my species specific tanks. I don't know why I do that it would not hurt at all to chunk in a modest amount, just routine habit I guess.

Jay

Edicson · 07-27-2009, 05:47 AM

ok. i havent been around in the forum much. this week was a little crazy for me. i didnt do much to the tank. only did about 25% water change on thursday(tap water only, with aqua plus+ water conditioner)(actually, the only thing i did different from before is that i didnt use hot tap water, only cold and then boiled some). i havent had the chance to test the water again after that. tomorrow(or i should say later on today, Monday) i will have time to do all this, and to get the things that i need from the fish store.
just to be clear, i should get the KH and GH tester, the LB salt, if they have it there, if not i'll ask if they could order. and some purified water.
also im going to call the plant see whats in my water (what should i ask them for when i call?)
then on top of that i also need to go get some plant substrate(i'm going to see if there is any that comes in sand form, i actually changed my mind and want to do a desert theme kinda thing)i took out all the green gravel(it was a pain in the ass to do that.)

louistheloach · 07-27-2009, 01:28 PM

before I purchase anything else, I would find out what is in your water from the plant. It could be that you live in an area that is mineral rich already and it may not be necessary to add anything else.

Plus if you have been using hot tap water, that could have been the reason for your high pH. A lot of lime would have been building up in your tank from the high levels of lime that tend to build up in hot water heaters. You may want to just ride with the change of not using hot tap water for the course of a six - eight weeks to see if the pH moderates a little. If that doesn't help you could try blending a little purchased purified water at the water changes, and if your water is naturally mineral rich, just using the product equilibrium may be all you need, in small amounts. If you try to do to many different changes at one time, you will not know what actually brought on the change/solution to the high pH. If your fish have survived up till now, they will be okay for several more weeks.

Jay,

I'm a little confused. But rather than take it up here i will start a new topic on salt in the aquarium.

ltl

Edicson · 07-29-2009, 02:34 AM

i called yesterday to get the information and they are going to mail me the water information. they said it would take 7-10 days.