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Old 08-12-2006, 10:43 AM   #1
Fry
 
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Kh management


This is my first planted tank. Previous experience was goldfish. Now I have a 75 gal planted tank, cycling well with a few plants, Carbo Plus unit and zebra danios. I am having trouble with water chemistry. In getting the ph to 7.0 with acid buffer the Kh drops to .5. What am I doing wrong? Also using four different Ph test kits I got four different readings. I tested the test kits on tap water and found readings from 6.8 to 9! I threw away the kits that tested 6.8 and 9 and kept the two that tested 7.5. These I use now to maintain Ph at 7.0 Did I do the right thing?

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Old 08-13-2006, 01:23 AM   #2
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My first question for you would be: Do you have CO2 injection(I'd like to guess that's what the 'Carbo Plus' unit is.)? If there isn't a sufficient amount of CO2 in the water the plants will strip bicarbonates from the water, which they put through some process that renders CO2. Basically, if there isn't CO2 in the water the plants will make it themselves, and your KH will suffer as a result. Also, the whacky PH readings are probably a result of the low KH, generally you won't get an accurate reading without your KH being in the preferred range. I'd also need to know if you're adding the chemicals to raise or lower the PH. If you don't have CO2 injection now, adding this to your tank would allow you to adjust the PH to exactly where you want it. Google this and you'll find charts showing the correlation between CO2 and PH, it's nearly a linear relationship. Check it out if you'd like.
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Old 08-13-2006, 08:25 AM   #3
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Hi Marry

Can you give us a complete set of tank parameters. You have a lot going on in there.

In PPM...

Ammonia
Nitrates
Phosphates
Nitrites
pH
KH
GH

Use one Kit that you like (I use aquarium pharmaceuticals) and remember it is only going give you approximate readings to use as trends.

Stop using the pH adjustments!! It is incredibly difficult is not impossible to stabilize pH and keep it rock solid using these products. You end up chasing your tail. Most experienced FW planted tank folks accept their tap water reading as their base line, because with a few exceptions, you have a really broad range to work with.

You will get an accurate pH reading with a low KH it just may not be where you want the pH to be.

A few plants are NOT going to affect your KH! There are more important things tied to your KH

Determine the KH of the water you use to do water changes, fill the tank etc. Because you are injecting CO2, your baseline (Target) reading should be in the 4-5 degree range 70-80 PPM.

KH Fixes
Quick fix: Turn the Carbo plus unit off for 24 hours. Add 1 tsp. of Baking soda wait an hour and take a reading. If low add 1/2 tsp. wait an hour, take a reading until the KH is at 4-5 degrees.

You can call your water company and ask them what the (Carbonic Hardness) of the tap water is.

Long Term: it your tap has low KH add a handful of crushed coral (in a filter bag) to your filter. This will raise KH and keep it up.

OK now the whole C02 injection, KH, pH thing

I will tell you upfront that there is so much confusion, misinformation, misunderstanding, incredibly misleading sales pitches, etc. etc. That covering this topic in a few paragraphs is impossible.

Here are a few basics that seem to fit your situation.

C02 injection will drive down the pH. The pH drops because Carbonic Acid is produced in the process. The Carbonic Acid will use up your KH. Remember KH is the waters ability to neutralize acids. Therefore a buffer of 4-5 is necessary to keep the pH from dropping to unacceptable levels.

I inject C02 (from a pressurised tank) only during the time my lights are on.
My pH drops a full point 7.2 to 6.8. <- there is NO problem with that.

You do not need to inject C02 to be successful with plants.

If you are headed to "Heavily Planted", Have 2.75 - 4 watts per gallon of light, plan on a fertilization routine (which you will need), then C02 injection becomes necessary because of the photosynthesis process being in high gear.

It is generally accepted among experienced plant folks that the level of C02 necessary during the photo period (lights on) is a range of 35 - 50 ppm.

From James R...

Quote:
If you don't have CO2 injection now, adding this to your tank would allow you to adjust the PH to exactly where you want it. Google this and you'll find charts showing the correlation between CO2 and PH, it's nearly a linear relationship. Check it out if you'd like.
James, this is not exactly right, even thou you were able to Google it.
Those charts were developed to show the relationship between KH and pH and the amount of dissolved Co2 possible. It is a "pure" relationship. In other words, in the real world of aquariums the results shown in a KH, pH, C02chart are so inaccurate that that method of measurement has been abandoned by planted tank folks. Simply put, there is too much other stuff going on to get an accurate reading.

In my tank, the pH KH chart shows me a 100 ppm of C02, enough to kill my fish, shrimp etc. Yet I know the actual amount is 30 ppm.

There is a good measurement method, we can discuss later.

I think I need to stop here, and see what questions Mary has so far.

Regards,
Jay
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Old 08-13-2006, 11:03 AM   #4
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Jay, Thanks so much - I have a better understanding of what is going on in this tank. Ammonia, Nitrites, Phosphates all are 0. Gh is 7 and Ph is 7. Nitrates are 5. Tap water is 7.5. I have been using Seachem acid buffer with the regular water changes to maintain the Ph at 7.0. The carbo plus CO2 unit goes on and off with the lights. They are on 10 hours a day. The carbo plus unit is rated for a 70gal tank. I dont thnik it is carrying this 75 gal tank even when you consider displacement. I have a second unit ordered so that I will run two. Pressurized CO2 would be much better and more economical. However I am a little timid about the mechanics and my hubby isnt too keen on a pressurized tank in the dining room! Do plants do well in water at Ph 7.5? The water department puts out an annual report to all customers it serves annually. I have a copy in my hand but it does not address Kh. It does show that the level of Nitrates for 2005 was 6.92! I did call the water dept this year and ask about the nitrates, but was too dumb to ask about Kh. The testing lab guy, quite nice, said that they are on of the few cities that softens its water. He also said that they don,t have any chloramines because they dont use any ammonia in the disnfection process. At least the plants i do have are growing, although I am beginning to see some beard algae. I pulled out and discarded a cryptocorine. I do see some pearling on the water wisteria and the ludwigia looks lush. Gee, I hop I get the hang of this. I really, really appreciate your help
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:50 PM   #5
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Jay
Re: Lighting

Two 6700K Life-Glo lamps and one T-5 Double Linear Strip 6700K Full Spectrum, all three weeks in service.

Thanks
Mary
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Old 08-14-2006, 12:05 AM   #6
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Thanks for the info Jay, I'll keep this in mind in the future. I've spent the last two months researching for my future plant tank, and I greatly appreciate new info. A quick question for you though(not really off the topic): Do all types of buffers absorb all types of acids? Or are there certain buffers that 'ignore' certain acids? Just curious to know. Thanks for any help in advance.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:04 AM   #7
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Mary..

What are the total watts of your lamps?
What is your current plant mass.

Just to give me a base, as I see there are algae questions on the horizon.

My Plant Mass is about 75% bottom coverage with Height being equally divided between low, mid, and surface reaching plants. I prune out about half that mass monthly. That should give you a bench mark for... a few plants; planted; or heavily planted.

I have 6 65 watt compact fluorescent lights over the 75.
Watts = 390; 390/75 = 5.2 watts per gallon. That is a lot of light

I time the lights so that I have a morning 2.5 hours of only 3.5 watts, a high noon 5.2 watts for 4 hours; and then an evening 3.5 watts for 2.5 hours. I am currently experimenting with this arrangement. I think I will probably need to cut back to 8 hours and shorten the high noon period.

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Old 08-14-2006, 08:40 AM   #8
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Hey James...

Right up front I need to confess that my Chemistry 101 days are a distant memory. Wait, No, I'm sure I attended the lectures.

I'm not sure I can answer your question about all buffers and acids.

In the aquarium we are dealing with a buffering solution ( all of the water in the tank) and it's ability to maintain it's pH when a small amount of acid is introduced. We are concerned with the buffering solution based on carbonates and bicarbonates the same as in nature. When we measure KH we are measuring carbonates.

There are other buffering solutions for example phosphate buffers, a lot of pH control chemicals are phosphate based, and using them interferes with KH testing accuracy, and some other bad stuff. Ex. You do not want high phosphates in a non planted tank unless you love algae

We just talked about the KH, pH, CO2 relationship and published charts. A serious planted tank requires nutrients, PO4 (phosphate) up there in the top two. 2-3 PPM is not uncommon. Clearly that is going to interfere with KH testing and "poof" the chart is useless

Hope that helps
Jay
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