Ammonia Levels

ggmichael · 10-05-2006, 08:38 PM

Ok we are 2 days into week 4, we have alot of algae growth. We have seen practically no change in our ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Ammonia has never been over .25 and the other two times we tested it recently it is 0. Nitrite was .25 at week 1 and then has been 0 ever since. Nitrate was at 7.5 week 1 and then has been 0 ever since. If Ammonia is the beginner product to get the NC running, are we going to need to add ammonia or something to create ammonia to kick start it? We have a 70 gal tank with 100lbs. LR, 40 lbs CC and 20lbs LS. Any ideas?

Loman · 10-05-2006, 09:28 PM

ggMichael,
Are you sure about these readings? If it is reasonable to do so you might want to get the LFS to also test the water and see what they get and compare to your readings. In general the algae bloom is to be expected at more or less this time but it is usually with an increase in Nitrate. I have only set up one slat tank and the live sand and rock was sufficient to get the cycle going. I would be very cautious about putting ammonia into the environment because there are living organisms in the LS and LR. If I wanted to create some ammonia I would probably throw in some food or anything that would rot and create a reasonable amount of ammonia. If the cycle has really kicked in you may not be able to detect the ammonia and or nitrites. I would expect to see nitrates at this time though.

Tommy Gun · 10-05-2006, 11:09 PM

Ok, again, let me cover myself by saying that i am far from an expert, but I think I might be able to add some insight into your water test results.

The first thing I would do is to go out and buy a different brand test kit (probrably a cheap one) to check my results against, just to be sure something didnt happen to my initial test kit to spoil it. I tend not to like taking water to a LFS to have it checked simply because most of them do not want to spend the money on testing water with the test tube type kits for free. So, you never know how accurate their tests will be.

However, it may be possible, depending on the quality and how cured your live rock and live sand are, that your tank already has the natural filtration built up enough to be capable of handling ammonia, nitrites, and nitrate. Essentially, what I think of it as anyways, you could have 'cloned' your fish tank from the tanks that held your live rock before you brought it home.

My experience is a good example of this, however I came about it using nothing more than dumb luck and some extra cash. My 90 gallon tank origonally held only 45 pounds of live rock, and 80 pounds of live sand. The live rock was 'cured' but during shipping, a lot of it had died off. Still, my tank's water parameters were just like yours, apparently ready for fish or not cycling for some reason. After reading a lot about how to cycle a tank, I decided I should give my tank some fish in hopes that this would start the cycle. So I got 4 damsels and waited it out.

Just about the time i put in the damsels, the die off from the live rock took affect and my water parameters went crazy. I went back to the lfs thinking that I would complain about how bad my rock looked. This is when I bought 40 more pounds of li ve rock for two reasons; the stuff they had in their tanks was available and looked great, and I needed to add some more rock to get that 'full' look in my tank. I put in the live rock and in about 48 hours, my water was back to being good. This was because the new live rock I bought came straight out of a tank and in less than 45 minutes was in my tank. So no die off or at least very minimal die off occurred.

I asked Aaron about this and he said it was much the same as cloning a freshwater tank. My tank has been up for just under a month and a half now and my water parameters all check out to be acceptable to keep the fish I have alive and healthy.

Still, I would double and triple check your water as thoroughly as you can. I found that the damsels were a good thing for trying to start a cycle because they are so hardy. None of them died, but i did learn that it is pretty bad to get small fish in a tank that you do not plan to keep them in. I had a super bad time trying to catch them to get them back to the lfs.

Loman · 10-06-2006, 06:48 AM

With Live rock the quicker time from one tank to another is great but anything beyond a few minutes and there will be some die off. I would also make sure and keep the rock moist during the transition. Where I go they wrap the rock in newspaper that is wetted down from the aquarium water

Jay · 10-06-2006, 06:54 AM

I was over here lurking

in the saltwater forum soaking up information, and had a few questions/comments.

My understanding is that it is the partial die off of live rock that produces the ammonia which kicks off the cycle. So to me adding a few drops of bottled ammonia instead of fish would not hurt.

IME the urea produced from fish food decomposition is very effective in causing nuisance algae blooms in FW is it the same in SW?

I agree with the test kit checkup. Those readings are a little funky. You could get the same readings from tap water. I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits, this is not a product endorsement just my opinion, and have found that they are almost always in the ball park.

Regards,
Jay

Loman · 10-06-2006, 11:24 AM

Jay,
As you probably know my saltwater experience is still a bit limited but let me try to answer what I was thinking on the post at least. Aaron or someone else can probably elaborate more.

From what I have read, and talked with people etc. the PARTIAL die off is what gets things started. However, you still want some life left and the critters to multiply and do whatever good things they do for you. There are horror stories about people taking live rock out of the tank and shipping it without being moist so it is completely dry for days. In that case it is also probably not a partial die off but a complete one that occurs. In terms of a few drops of Ammonia that would probably work but I never know how much to add so I am afraid of that approach. It is also easy for someone to decide if a little is good the whole bottle would be great and that would be very bad. Again I think you are looking for the moderate levels to get things going not a dramatic change that will kill everything.

I must admit the idea of throwing in food comes more from my freshwater background. My personal experience was the live rock and live sand got things going just fine.

I use the same test kit as well as the test strips from Mandrel. I have not personally seen a great difference in the readings but others seem to have had better experience with liquid. I have a really good LFS in terms of testing water, which was the basis of that suggestion. It really does not matter how but I would try to get a second test with different chemicals and different eyes comparing the colors to see if the same results were achieved. I know that I have a hard time sometimes deciding on exactly which shade the test is.

ggmichael · 10-07-2006, 09:47 PM

Tommy since you are at week 6 (I think that is what you said), is all the algae gone? We are still growing tons of algae...by the minute...and today we took the LR out and held it in the bathtub with saltwater for about 30-45 mins. while we cleaned the bank and added more LS. While the LR was out I tried to scrub it a bit but much of the algae did not come off. Tomorrow we are checking water parameters again.

AARON, is it possible that it is fully cycled if we continue to get the zero readings even with algae growth? What are your thoughts on this please.

Thanks.
GG

Loman · 10-09-2006, 12:51 PM

ggMichael,
I am sure Aaron will respond as well but the algae bloom typically occurs at the end of the cycle when the Nitrates spike. The nitrates become the nutrients for the algae I believe. The algae with no nitrates seems confusing to me (maybe Aaron can explain it). I am also a little surprised based on what you are saying that you did not have an ammonia spike. Cleaning the algae off the live rock would I think almost certainly have created a partial die off of critters etc. As I stated above I am still a bit new to salt but if the water parameters were testing good I would try to get a clean up crew of some sort at least and see how things go. You might also try a hardy fish as well.

Tommy Gun · 10-09-2006, 04:15 PM

Hey guys,

I would say that my algea 'bloom' is still happening but it is slowing down considerably. (I am at week 7 and a half or 8, depending on what qualifies as day 1 I suppose) If I were you, I would check out the phosphate levels in your water. I can honestly say that I am growing some good amounts of algea without any ammonia or nitrites in my tank at all.

I got myself some turbo snails the other day and they are taking care of the algea really quickly. They will not spend any time on the back of the tank though and I dont know if that is because they do not like the color black or whatever. It is odd. I also have this awesome tool that came with a shovel, scraper blade, and scrubber pad that makes cleaning up the algea super easy. I am not worrying myself with the algea that is growing on the rocks or the stuff that is growing in the few places that I cannot reach without taking the LR out. I guess I figure that algea is going to be a part of this ordeal, so why bother, right?

I know that my LR is doing great right now and so I am hessitant to take it out of the water right now. I guess I am thinking 'if its not broke, why fix it?" plan as of right now.

Loman · 10-09-2006, 04:36 PM

Tommy,
Out of curiosity what are your nitrates. I expect they will be 20 or higher to support the algae bloom. That is not a problem for most fish from what I read although it could be for some corals.