African Cichlids - Appear very "afraid"???

Cichlids4Ever · 10-12-2006, 04:21 PM

I have 4 African Cichlids in my 75 gallon tank since May.
I am not quite sure how they were when I first got them, But they are totally "nuts" at this point.
They hate light. You cannot go near the tank before they "run for shelter"
What can cause this?

They have been through two ICH treaments over the past few months. Maybe the high salt drove them whacky?

I do remember they used to come to the front of the tank when they saw me getting ready to feed them, but now, when I approach the tank, they scamper away, scraping gravel and knocking over plants!

Temp is 80 degrees
PH is up around 8, which is right for them.
All other water parameters are normal.

Any help would be appreciated. Can they be helped?

ZeroSystem · 10-12-2006, 06:19 PM

Eh, I've heard of this before but so far haven't experianced it myself. Is your tank in a high traffic area of the house? I've heard that people who keeps african cichlids in a tank thats placed in their living room, where all the action is, usually don't have much of a problem with this behavior, while people who have their tanks in bedrooms that are usually empty for the majority of the day can end up with super skittish fish. My african cichlids usually are only thinking about food when I get near them and only run for cover if you approach the tank very quickly.

Cichlids4Ever · 10-12-2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeroSystem

Eh, I've heard of this before but so far haven't experianced it myself. Is your tank in a high traffic area of the house? I've heard that people who keeps african cichlids in a tank thats placed in their living room, where all the action is, usually don't have much of a problem with this behavior, while people who have their tanks in bedrooms that are usually empty for the majority of the day can end up with super skittish fish. My african cichlids usually are only thinking about food when I get near them and only run for cover if you approach the tank very quickly.

Thanks for the reply....

My tank is right with the family in the family room.
They get real weird especially when the tank light is on.
I don't know what happened to them but they sure aren't fun to take care of right now.
Maybe when all the salt is out from the Ich treatment....maybe then they will calm down.

jd@ga · 10-13-2006, 01:35 AM

Hey joe ! Just a couple of questions. Do your cichlids have plenty of places to hide in your tank? Do you have your lights on a timer?

Cichlids4Ever · 10-13-2006, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd@ga

Hey joe ! Just a couple of questions. Do your cichlids have plenty of places to hide in your tank? Do you have your lights on a timer?

Yes, they have a bunch of places to hide.
I have a lot of artificial plants (cichlids will eat real plants), plus I have 3 large bridges and rocks and caves with many different openings and hiding places.
I was told that they would fight if they couldn't hide, plus it also helps breeding.
The thing is, they now have got to the point where they are always hiding either if the light is on in the tank, or if anybody is in the room at all. I actually have to throw food in there, walk away, shut all the lights, then they'll eat.
The pleasure of owning a tank is gone.
P.S.
No, the lights are not on a timer. Someone suggested that I get a timer and change the light to blue?

I have also seen lighting systems that actually change from blue to bright to simulate day and night. You think that is the key?

ZeroSystem · 10-13-2006, 12:20 PM

Well, I'm not sure as I said before, but I don't think it's the type or color of the lighting itself thats spooking them. Did you recently leave the tank lights off for an extended period of time? Maybe they got used to being in the dark? Fish always feel more comfortable in the dark, they feel like they're better hidden and safer and all that stuff. I just can't think of a reason why they would suddenly change their behavior like that...

Fish that constently hide are no fun, I hope you're able to solve the problem soon! If I were you I might try not feeding them for a few days, maybe then when you turn on the lights they'll be a little more eager to come out for some food. Just a thought.

Cichlids4Ever · 10-13-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeroSystem

Well, I'm not sure as I said before, but I don't think it's the type or color of the lighting itself thats spooking them. Did you recently leave the tank lights off for an extended period of time? Maybe they got used to being in the dark? Fish always feel more comfortable in the dark, they feel like they're better hidden and safer and all that stuff. I just can't think of a reason why they would suddenly change their behavior like that...

Fish that constently hide are no fun, I hope you're able to solve the problem soon! If I were you I might try not feeding them for a few days, maybe then when you turn on the lights they'll be a little more eager to come out for some food. Just a thought.

I have now added a timer to the lights, but I like your idea about not feeding them for a while.

They might start picking on my catfish, but that will be a small price to pay for having my good old fish back!
To answer your question, No, I haven't left them in the dark for any period of time.
Usually I am up at 6 and they get their light and food.
I turn down the light mid-day because my home is very bright, then I let mother nature take over.
All of a sudden they freaked.
I'll keep you posted!

Tommy Gun · 10-13-2006, 08:19 PM

IME with africans, you cannot simply just fill your tank with all african cichlids and expect them to be ok. I think that you definately need to know exactly what kind of fish you have first before you can determine the exact cause of the 'weird' behavior.

First question, are all four fish the same species?

IF NOT:
I think that what may have happened is that you bought four fish as juvenilles, before their true natures have really developed, and now you are starting to see their natural 'personalities'. What may be happening now is that your fish do not have a natural heirarchy to follow and each fish is becoming reclusive because of it. What I mean is, USUALY, in my opinoin (and through my research and experience) it is best to keep one to two spacific species in a tank at a time in a 1 male to 3 or 4 female ratio. This is because two males are going to be fighting for dominance in the tank and one will obviously lose, and if one male and one female are kept together, then the female is going to be constantly bullied into mating and may lose her life or at least be very stressed.

However, I have seen many tanks that hold many different types of species in a tank at one time with no two fish being the same and all of the fish being either males or females. In this type of situation, all of the fish need to be close to the same as far as their tendancy for aggression goes in order for it to work. For example, keeping M. Auratus with yellow labs is going to be asking for trouble since Auratus are very aggressive cichlids and yellow labs being nearly the least aggressive cichlids. Keeping Auratus with P. Kennyi (another very aggressive cichlid) can be done with success if a few tricks are used.

As far as cichlids go, you are going to want to do one of two things basically. You could set up your tank in a 'biotope" fashion with a lot of rocks and caves to offer hiding places and places of quick refuge for the fish. This will help to reduce the tension in the tank and allow for the creation of territories. Any fish that dares to venture out into open water will be confident that he or she can get away from a bully pretty quickly. It also creates a situation in which a fish's 'line of sight' is disturbed when looking from one side of the tank to another. So, when an aggressive or dominant cichlid is looking for trouble, it is harder to spot.

OR, you can keep your tank free of hiding places in order to reduce the creation of territories. This will keep the fish in a constant state of 'guessing' and saftey can be found in that no one fish can technically become 'THE' dominant one.

IME, there is no golden rule for which tank setup will be the best for you and it will be somewhat of a learn by your mistakes situation. I highly suggest you determine what species of African cichlids you are keeping as this will help you more in finding out how the fish tend to live.

IF THEY ARE THE SAME:

IMO, what is most likely the problem is that you have an improper ratio of males to females. Like I explained above, you do want want to keep all males together since this will just lead to a dominance fight in which some or all of the fish who are deemed less dominant cannot move about the tank freely (or are easily 'spooked'). If you have two males and two females, then you have the same issue as cichlids do not tend to be like humans or many other fish and choose just one mate (or breeding pairs). The most dominant male will likely want both females and fight fiercly for them.

A good hint as to who is the most dominant fish in your tank would be the brighter coloration on one fish. Once you know what species you are keeping, then you may find out that either the males or females will change coloration when they reach sexual maturity. It is possible for a submissive male to keep his juvy or female coloration if he is scared (and vice versa). This is to fool the more dominant fish.
================================================== ====

I honestly believe that your fish are not scared of your lights and rather your issue is one of your particular fish species behaviors. A timer is a good thing however because it does create a pattern that your fish will follow (if you do not agree, you can check out my tank because they know when it is feeding time since it is the same every day). You may also want to think about turning on a light in the room (but not the tank light) a half hour or so before the tank lights turn on to help create a 'dawn' and 'dusk' feel. I use small little LED lights in my tank during the night so that the tank isnt completely dark (I do it more to see the fish). This may help your fish adjust to sudden bright lights without being spooked. I have heard of many fish that are prone to sudden light fright, but not really in cichlids per say. That is not to say it isnt possible though.

Also, do you have a background on your tank?

I ask because many skittish fish can benifit from a background since it creates a feeling of having only one or two directions to worry about threats approaching from. I saw almost instant results when I added a background to my cichlid tank.

I feel that having your tank in a high traffic area does pose some different challenges for fish. Naturally, fish want to live just like the rest of us, and so they will run from sudden movements. Tapping on the glass is also bad, but I have read that loud noises in the room with the tank, even loud music, is not really 'heard' by your fish or is otherwise muted by the deminished ability for sound waves to move through water.

I hope this helps a little bit. I have done a ton of research on cichlids in the past and continue to read and find new, cooler, ideas for my tank.

Cichlids4Ever · 10-13-2006, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

IME with africans, you cannot simply just fill your tank with all african cichlids and expect them to be ok. I think that you definately need to know exactly what kind of fish you have first before you can determine the exact cause of the 'weird' behavior.

First question, are all four fish the same species?

IF NOT:
I think that what may have happened is that you bought four fish as juvenilles, before their true natures have really developed, and now you are starting to see their natural 'personalities'. What may be happening now is that your fish do not have a natural heirarchy to follow and each fish is becoming reclusive because of it. What I mean is, USUALY, in my opinoin (and through my research and experience) it is best to keep one to two spacific species in a tank at a time in a 1 male to 3 or 4 female ratio. This is because two males are going to be fighting for dominance in the tank and one will obviously lose, and if one male and one female are kept together, then the female is going to be constantly bullied into mating and may lose her life or at least be very stressed.

However, I have seen many tanks that hold many different types of species in a tank at one time with no two fish being the same and all of the fish being either males or females. In this type of situation, all of the fish need to be close to the same as far as their tendancy for aggression goes in order for it to work. For example, keeping M. Auratus with yellow labs is going to be asking for trouble since Auratus are very aggressive cichlids and yellow labs being nearly the least aggressive cichlids. Keeping Auratus with P. Kennyi (another very aggressive cichlid) can be done with success if a few tricks are used.

As far as cichlids go, you are going to want to do one of two things basically. You could set up your tank in a 'biotope" fashion with a lot of rocks and caves to offer hiding places and places of quick refuge for the fish. This will help to reduce the tension in the tank and allow for the creation of territories. Any fish that dares to venture out into open water will be confident that he or she can get away from a bully pretty quickly. It also creates a situation in which a fish's 'line of sight' is disturbed when looking from one side of the tank to another. So, when an aggressive or dominant cichlid is looking for trouble, it is harder to spot.

OR, you can keep your tank free of hiding places in order to reduce the creation of territories. This will keep the fish in a constant state of 'guessing' and saftey can be found in that no one fish can technically become 'THE' dominant one.

IME, there is no golden rule for which tank setup will be the best for you and it will be somewhat of a learn by your mistakes situation. I highly suggest you determine what species of African cichlids you are keeping as this will help you more in finding out how the fish tend to live.

IF THEY ARE THE SAME:

IMO, what is most likely the problem is that you have an improper ratio of males to females. Like I explained above, you do want want to keep all males together since this will just lead to a dominance fight in which some or all of the fish who are deemed less dominant cannot move about the tank freely (or are easily 'spooked'). If you have two males and two females, then you have the same issue as cichlids do not tend to be like humans or many other fish and choose just one mate (or breeding pairs). The most dominant male will likely want both females and fight fiercly for them.

A good hint as to who is the most dominant fish in your tank would be the brighter coloration on one fish. Once you know what species you are keeping, then you may find out that either the males or females will change coloration when they reach sexual maturity. It is possible for a submissive male to keep his juvy or female coloration if he is scared (and vice versa). This is to fool the more dominant fish.
================================================== ====

I honestly believe that your fish are not scared of your lights and rather your issue is one of your particular fish species behaviors. A timer is a good thing however because it does create a pattern that your fish will follow (if you do not agree, you can check out my tank because they know when it is feeding time since it is the same every day). You may also want to think about turning on a light in the room (but not the tank light) a half hour or so before the tank lights turn on to help create a 'dawn' and 'dusk' feel. I use small little LED lights in my tank during the night so that the tank isnt completely dark (I do it more to see the fish). This may help your fish adjust to sudden bright lights without being spooked. I have heard of many fish that are prone to sudden light fright, but not really in cichlids per say. That is not to say it isnt possible though.

Also, do you have a background on your tank?

I ask because many skittish fish can benifit from a background since it creates a feeling of having only one or two directions to worry about threats approaching from. I saw almost instant results when I added a background to my cichlid tank.

I feel that having your tank in a high traffic area does pose some different challenges for fish. Naturally, fish want to live just like the rest of us, and so they will run from sudden movements. Tapping on the glass is also bad, but I have read that loud noises in the room with the tank, even loud music, is not really 'heard' by your fish or is otherwise muted by the deminished ability for sound waves to move through water.

I hope this helps a little bit. I have done a ton of research on cichlids in the past and continue to read and find new, cooler, ideas for my tank.

Tommy,
I do have different types of Cichlids in there. I didn't know any better, and I did get them as juveniles.
I have one bumblebee, one they call a Blue Zebra, and two that I think are called Blue yellow tails.
3 of them have what they call "egg spots" on their fins. Does that mean they are male or female?
I have lots of caves and stuff so they are getting territorial. When it comes time to feed them, the biggest fish goes out and gets what "he" wants while the others wait and sneak a few bites when they can.
I guess I should have done more research before buying?
Well, I am going to be advancing to a 135 gallon soon.
Maybe I should pick the most colorful of the bunch and go with that?
The problem is that the darn pet shops don't know the difference between male and female unless they are live bearers.
The fish that I have are acting like they want to breed.
They are making large caves in the coral substrate. Who knows what's going on? :-)
I'll have to read some more before I populate my new tank. Maybe I just don't have the choice of having a variety of Cichlids, but I may be able to put other species in there? I'll have to check.
Thanks for your input. I am still going to try and help these along.
Possibly move the biggest out into the new tank?
Have a good night!!!

Tommy Gun · 10-13-2006, 09:57 PM

IN GENERAL (as this may not always be the rule), Males are going to be the fish that have eggspots. Simply put, when cichlids (mouth brooders) breed, the male will pick and groom a 'spot' and bring the female there. The female will lay eggs in the spot while circling around and around with the male. Once some eggs are laid, then the male will begin to fertilize them. The female will then scoop up the eggs into her mouth for incubation.

The eggspots are designed to keep the female chasing the male, thinking she still has eggs to get. This allows the male to contiune releasing sperm with a greater chance of the female catching some and further fertilizing the eggs in her mouth.

I think you have just explained a lot when you describe the situation that occurs when you are feeding. Obviously the one fish that is eating the most and not afraid to go get the food is more dominant in the tank and the others are afraid. Keep in mind that cichlids to have teeth and so they are able to inflict pain and suffering more so that community fish can (even tiger barbs, the natorious fin nippers).

I think that in a 135 gallon tank you could actually keep all your fish. You really just need to add more of the same fish, in a one male to three or four female ratio. This will keep one species interested in chasing the same species and so on and so on. HOWEVER, this is not the case with every species since some are going to be much more aggressive than others.

Until just recently, my cichlid tank held 6 yellow labs (a very low aggression type cichlid) and three P. Kennyi (a very high aggression fish). This system was totally and completely fine until the fish began to gain sexual maturity. The kennyi were kept in a one male to two female ratio, with plans to get more females but I was unable to find them. Not quick to give up, I tried adding as many hiding places as I could and when that didnt work, I took everything out of the tank short of a couple plants (fake) in the corners. Basically the kennyi male just dug a hole in the center of the tank and made his own territory.

So, I tried something I had read about in one of my many magazines I get monthly and added some 'dither fish'. To be exact, I put my old 'ship wreck' decor that I had in the tank (when it was a community tank) back in and added 8 medium to large Tiger Barbs. The barbs were mean themselves and also very quick and then never stop moving. The cichlids were totally preoccupied with the barbs and I even kept four clown loaches in the tank for a long time with NO problems.

In the end, I traded away the three kennyi because I couldnt find more of them that were the same size, other wise I would have kept this tank the same. I now have just the yellow labs and tiger barbs and a couple others in the tank. I have no problems and am expecting fry soon.

So, the moral of my story here is that with cichlids there are millions of tricks to use and consider. Some will work for you and some wont, it will be trial and error for sure. Some may work for another person with the exact same fish and tank size but not for you.

I would suggest that you research by comparing pictures of cichlids to your fish until you are highly confident in knowing what you are dealing with. Then read as much as you can (try searching by scientific name, that will bring you to more 'scientific' sites with hopefully more accurate info) about your fish and make decisions on what to keep and what to move then.

I also realize that many fish stores just lump all 'africans', 'central american' and 'new world' cichlids in one tank and many people then think they all can be kept together. This is usually true until they are mature and then they get what you have. It is totally not your fault at all so dont give up and dont think your tank is not a pleasure anymore. With a few minor adjustments, you are going to be just fine. Who knows, maybe all you need are a couple more females for each fish with eggspots (of the same species accordingly, of course) and presto! your tank is amazingly alive and alert.

P.S. Just to add to the whole problem with how LFS usually lump all african cichlids together, it is much better to keep africans seperated by the lakes in which they come from (e.g. Malawi) instead of just thinking african cichlids are african cichlids. Just another hint for you. I hope you are not discouraged by how much there is to know and learn about these fish but rather excited at how proactive you can now be with your hobby! Research is only boring when you are doing it on something that you dont care about like when you are in school. This is a whole new world!