Mattrt09's official tank thread

mattrt09 · 06-22-2007, 10:30 PM

Ok so i thought i would make a thread that i will keep updated with problems questions, concerns, etc....

first question.

My fish blot left and right constantly....is this a problem....

Tommy Gun · 06-23-2007, 12:00 AM

Hello again Mattrt09!

I have to admit that I am not sure exactly what you mean by your fish 'blot' left and right, but my gut instinct is that they are swimming oddly back and forth in your tank...correct?

If so, it is important to know that, based upon my observations, a lot of hobbyists notice some level of 'oddness' with newly purchased fish. So, this may just be a case of the 'jitters'; however....

This could also be a water quality issue of some sort. Since I just read and replied to your post on stocking options, I know that your tank is basically brand new and these are the first fish to reside in it...correct? If that is the case, did you cycle the tank? If you did, how did you go about doing that? Do you know what your water parameters are (ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, pH, Kh, etc...) and can you share those test results with us? If you don't test your water for these items, I highly suggest that you start since swimming erratically may be a symptom of ammonia or nitrite poisoning. In general, if I notice a problem in any of my own aquariums, the first place I look is my water parameters. If you do not have a test kit right now, or even if you do, you and your fish might benefit greatly from a water change of 30 to 50%. Be sure to use a dechlorination conditioner when you add new water to your tank if you have city water. Chlorine is toxic to your fish so may also be a contributing factor to your problem, if you truly have a problem in the first place (it is hard to say since I obviously cannot see your tank and fish in person).

Like I said, if I was in your situation right now, and even though I don't really know for sure if this is a problem or just a fluke sort of thing, I would still do a water change and then observe the tank more closely for a few days to see if that helped at all. Obviously, if it does help, then you might want to keep closer tabs on your water quality.

Hope this helps a bit. I am glad that you are planning to keep us updated on your progress with this tank since I find it interesting to 'watch' fellow hobbyists as they progress with a tank and with the hobby in general. I will be sure to keep tabs on your progress in the future!

mattrt09 · 06-23-2007, 12:44 AM

haha thank you again haha

yes i have a testing kit and yes i did cycle the water....

i have a friend that is helping me who has had tanks for many many years so the water is fine...

i have tested it 3 times so far and every time i havt done so they have been ok.

my PH is around 7.8

the fish are calming down a little but my loach are still hiding and not moving hardly at all, but as you mentioned previously i might have to get a third...

any suggestions on what fish to get next??

i was thinking i might need to get a snail or shrimp or catfish to clean the algea and eat left over food? idk i was just thinkin

P.S. its supposed to say bolt not blot haha

mattrt09 · 06-23-2007, 11:29 AM

Put 2 tiger barb's in today

they are doing great....

one question

how much do i need to feed them? today i fed them one block of brill shrimp and 1 block of blood worms....is that to much or not enough.....

gm333 · 06-23-2007, 10:56 PM

Thats definitly too much. Generally a small amount is sufficient. Use 1/4 of the cube that will be enough for now till you get more fish in the tank. I would also suggest feeding your fish flake food more than frozen. They need more nutrients than what comes from the krill and blood worms.

Tommy Gun · 06-24-2007, 12:22 AM

I agree with GM...you do not need to feed you fish that much at one time and for most of your fish, flake foods would be a good staple diet, but you can feed frozen foods as sort of a 'treat' from time to time (maybe once or twice a week). A varied diet is a very good thing so try to accommodate your fish the best you can. Overfeeding is something that you will want to avoid because it can lead to a myriad of issues such as rapid and abundant algae growth, bacterial/algae blooms, high nitrAte levels, etc... I would also suggest that you can easily 'get away with' feeding your fish only once a day without causing them any harm. Keep in mind that your fish will soon begin to recognize you as their food source, so try your best not to be fooled into thinking that they are starving every time you walk by the tank. Just like Pavlov's dog, they are just getting 'conditioned' to recognize that you equal food so they will seemingly become excited when you are near.

I understand that you have good support in your experienced hobbyist friend, however, I have noticed that everyone do not always share the same definition of the term "good". Not to sound like I am disrespecting your friend's knowledge nor yours, what is generally considered to be "good" water quality is when your test results show you that there is 0 ppm of ammonia, 0 ppm of nitrItes, a very low ppm of nitrAtes, and a steady pH level. In general, freshwater fish have the ability to acclimate to various levels of pH so long as the change in pH is not too rapid or too frequent. That said, I think that your pH of 7.8 shouldn't be a huge concern for you even if your fishes' natural habitat does not match that pH level...unless your pH is changing constantly. So, while pH is arguably not as much of an issue as some people might suggest, it is still an important item to keep tabs on and test for.

The same things can also be said about cycling a tank...not everyone agrees on what that really means exactly. In fact, I have read at least a few posts from new hobbyists who believe that 'cycling' a tank means doing a water change, which is not the case at all. I can also clearly remember that when I bought my first aquarium, the LFS employee who was helping me told me that all I had to do was take the tank home, set it up, fill it with water and wait for three days in order to cycle it. Then I was supposed to take a water sample back to the store so they can test it and tell me if it was ready to stock with fish. Amazingly, my water tested out to be 'perfect' and so I bought a bunch of fish. Looking back on that situation today, knowing what I do now, I realize that the reason for my 'perfect' test results were simply due to the fact that the tank held no fish and so there was no waste to pollute the water. So, to avoid any confusion and if you are willing, could you share the method you used to cycle your tank with us?

Quote:

i was thinking i might need to get a snail or shrimp or catfish to clean the algae and eat left over food?

As far as snails go, you may not be happy with adding one to your tank right now since your clown loaches could wind up eating it. Even though I have kept a snail or two in the same tank with my clown loaches, which was probably made possible because the snail(s) were large apple snails, however, the risk of you losing a snail to the loaches is still there. In fact, while I cannot prove it, I believe that at least one of my large apple snails may have died as a result of my loaches.

Your clown loaches are also going to help keep your substrate free of food particles to some extent so you may not need an additional catfish or bottom feeder at all. In fact, you could almost be doing more harm than good by adding a catfish because that would create competition for food between the fish you have. You may already know this, but your clown loaches are 'equipped' with a 'spike' located just below their eyes for which they use to defend themselves. IME, they are not very aggressive per say, but if they need to fight another fish for some reason, they can inflict a good amount of harm.

As far as algae eaters go, IMHO you should hold off for a while before you bring one home. My reasoning for saying that is simply based upon the fact that many newly established tanks cannot 'grow' enough algae to support an algae eater's dietary needs. In fact, I have observed many baffled hobbyists who cannot figure out why his or her algae eater died without warning. In most cases, those hobbyists forget to take into account that their fish may have starved to death. Even if your tank has copious amounts of algae growing in it, not all algae eaters will eat every type of algae...which I think propagates the confusion over why some of these fish starve because a hobbyist doesn't realize that his or her fish does not eat the algae he or she would like it to rid the tank of. Too add to that, a lot of people do not realize that some types of plecostomus, which is arguably the most common algae eater found in tanks across the country, if not world, become less and less focused on eating algae as they age, which defeats their original purpose. In fact, some plecos do not eat hardly any algae at all no matter how old they are. Besides, you can also do alot to control algae on your own, such as avoiding overfeeding, without needing the 'services' of a fish. Assuming that you do not have an issue right now in your new tank, you can ask about that later if you need to.

mattrt09 · 06-24-2007, 01:00 AM

Wow so much great information. Thank you very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

could you share the method you used to cycle your tank with us?

Sure....

i dont really know if i did the right thing but my steps before i filled the tank were.

1 cleaned tank, rocks, plants etc.
2 filled with water.
3 put the pump in
4 put in PH regulater stuff called neutral regulator
5 put in "nitroban" stuff in a yellow botlle to control nitrite and nitrate
6 let the pump filter the water and air pump run for four days
7 the fifth day when i actually got the fish i tested the water with a 6 in 1 quick dip test strip everything tested ok (or at least to the chart) PH was at about 7.8
8 put the fish in and turned the heater on.(doing everything needed to do before putting fish in, letting them float in bags etc.)

once again i dont really know if i did aanything wrong so that is where i come to you guys....

and a quick question

What abnormal behavior should i look for in the fish to show that something is wrong? Is there really any certain signs they that do to show something is wrong?

Tommy Gun · 06-24-2007, 02:38 AM

Whew! I am glad that I asked you the question about cycling your tank....

First, IMHO, you can just foget about the pH regulator since you really dont need it and in fact, if you do not use it correctly or fail to test very regularly for pH, it could cause more harm than good. Besides, IMO, you probably dont want to commit yourself to having to pay for this product for the rest of your life...or your tank's life, which ever ends first.

Second, the nitroban product might be what is saving you right now, but again, you shouldnt need to become a slave to this product by having to buy it forever. Your goal here should not be focused so much on controlling ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates (or even pH) by using some product all of the time. Instead, your goal should be to promote and then protect a 'colony' of benificial bacteria which will 'transform' highly toxic ammonia and nitrites into less toxic nitrates...which you remove via a regularly scheduled water change. To learn more about cycling a tank...which is the process of promoting and protecting this benificial bacteria, read through this article:
http://www.fishtankforums.com/fishtank/freshcycling

It is also important to note that even if your tank was cycled, which I do not believe it is at this time based upon your description of events, you will always want to add new fish slowly...meaning only adding a small number of fish at one time. By adding fish in larger quantities, you are putting stress on your tank's bioload...which you will understand better after reading the article above, but means you dont want to overwhelm your tank with a sudden increase of waste producing fish.

Not that it really matters now, but for the future, you probably should have turned your heater on and waited for your water temp to hit 77 degrees or so before you added any fish. Also, since I know that many people are advised that all one needs to do is float the bag of fish in your tank for a certain amount of time and then let them go, read through this article to learn about acclimation practices. While it is focused somewhat heavily on saltwater fish, IMHO, using these methods could potentially save the life and sort of fish (freshwater, brackish, saltwater) and hence, could increase your success as far as keeping the origonal fish you purchase alive versus having to return dead fish for a new one under a warranty policy.

http://www.fishtankforums.com/fishta...ationpractices

At this point, I think that it might be hard for you to gauge your water quality by observing your fish since they are new and could give you mixed signals because of the stress they are under from being put in a bag and carried to your home. For this reason, I suggest you rely more so on water testing rather than other visual signs right now. Otherwise, you would want to look for anything which seems out of the ordinary as far as fish behavior is concerned. I recently saw a more complete list of signs and symptoms of poor water quality by fish...I will see if I can find that again and give you a link. The more obvious signs of water quality issues would be erratic swimming, or vice versa, meaning very slow moving fish who used to be very active. Also, watch for heavy breathing, especially if they are 'sitting' on the bottom of your tank (except if they are bottom dwellers like loaches and catfish) or if they seem to be 'gasping' for air at the surface of the water. You may also want to consider adding some salt to this tank....not marine salt, but regular table salt at the rate of about one tablespoon per every 10 gallons of water. This would normally be one tablespoon per every 5 gallons of water, but since your loaches are scaleless, they may be more sensitive to having salt in the water and become irritated or burned by it. Be sure to dissolve the salt in some water BEFORE you add it to the tank, and then add it slowly so your fish can have time to 'adjust'. The salt will help your fish 'breath" better and easier when nitrite levels are high since nitrites can affect a fish's gills.

mattrt09 · 06-24-2007, 04:23 PM

thanks alot for the info.

i dont wanna come across rude so dont tak this that way but you gave me alot of info and links showing me how i did things wrong in the past. Is it possible for you to tell me what to do now and not correct my past mistakes?....not trying to be rude

had my first death today.....suprisingly it was a puffer

Tommy Gun · 06-24-2007, 06:17 PM

You are right, I appologize for dwelling on the past so much in my previous posts.

The first thing you need to do is test your water very often...daily wound probably not be unreasonable at this point (since you had a fish die). Test frequently for Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites are very toxic to your fish so you will need to reduce them via water changes. Personally, I wouldn't let your ammonia levels raise above 2 ppm and the same for the nitrites. Like I may have said before, you can help your fish deal a little bit better with the nitrites by adding a small amount of salt to your tank (about one tablespoon/3 teaspoons per 10 gallons, because of your loaches, and dissolve it first, adding it slowly).

There is a good chance that you will not have any nitrites at all right now, but that is not really a good sign which suggests you can stop testing for them. What happens is that as fish wastes decay, they become ammonia and then one type of bacteria (benificial bacteria) will 'eat' that ammonia, creating nitrites. So, there is probably going to be a delay between when you see ammonia levels and then nitrites levels. Make sense?

The same thing can be said about nitrAte levels as well. After that first type of bacteria 'eats' the ammonia, making nitrites, then another sort of bacteria will 'eat' nitrites and make nitrates. Having nitrates in your tank is a good sign since this means your tank now contains both types of benificial bacteria and is well on its way to being 'cycled'. Once you start to see nitrates in your tank, dont give up on water testing frequently! I admit that I no longer test my tank any more than once or twice a month, however, my tanks are very well established and I still test just to make sure that there is no ammonia or nitrites in my tank...especially when I have a fish die, water quality is the first place I look usually.

So...all of that being said, you can read more about cycling in this article HERE. And for the record, I did not write that article in its entirety, so you can be sure that this is not all my opinion or anything along those lines.

From here on out, your tests are going to tell you when you need to change some water out. You are now going through a 'fishy cycle', even though it is unwittingly, which means you are using live fish to produce wastes in order to attract and propogate benificial bacteria. The problem here is that you dont have those good bacteria right now so your water is becoming polluted with ammonia and nitrites, toxic chemicals to your fish (and to us as well, by the way). So water changes are the way to go in order to lower those items. While doing water changes can slow your cycle down because removing ammonia and nitrites is essentially removing the food source for your eventual good bacteria, however if you dont remove some of that food source, your fish suffer and maybe die. So, this is a give and take situation, but dont worry, eventually your tank will cycle itself and you will not have to do water changes any more frequently than other hobbyists, like myself.

You can also help your tank out to some extent by adding bacteria via products such as BioSpira. To be honest, at first I thought all bacteria based products such as BioSpira were good, however, after another member, BJP, shed a lot of light on the subject, I have stuck with Biospira for all of my new tanks, including saltwater tanks. (Hopefully BJP can chime in here for you as well...I will send him a PM to ask him to take a look at this thread). Anyways, these products actually contain benificial bacteria, or supposedly do, which can help your tank along in varrying degrees. While I do not really intend to imply that these products are the end-all-be-all solution to situations like yours, based upon the experiements BJP did, and from what I understood from them, it seems as though they can help.

So, in the end, water changes and a little bit of salt could help you and your fish quite a bit here. Personally, I prefer the liquid type test kits over the test strips because the strips can become 'tainted' easily from things like high humidity, but in either case, you will need to test often in order to ensure that your fish can survive this cycle. If you would like, a few members have posted daily water test results on the forum so that other members can add more support or explainations as the tank-in-question progresses through a cycle.