Parasite Treatment - Help!

Cichlids4Ever · 08-07-2006, 06:46 AM

Hi,
I have a 75 gallon fresh water tank with a variety of Cichlids.
Bumblebee, etc.
They are new to my tank and have just started scratching at rocks and along the bottom, but they don't have spots. I suspect it is not Ick?
They are not constantly doing this, but they are scratching.
My pet dealer said it was common parasites and I could treat them with 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons, so I did that.
My questions are, how soon after treatment should I see improvement?
Is this the right treatment?
Can I repeat it after time?
Is there anything else I could do to help the situation? My water was tested and the PH was a bit low so I am treating that also.

Jay · 08-07-2006, 11:03 AM

Did he tell you what the common parasite was? Ich, Gill flukes?

If it is ich 1 tsp. of salt per 5 gallons is not enough salt.

What is the pH..it is generally not necessary and very difficult to try to artificially adjust pH.

I so rarely see disease in my tanks I forget symptoms, I will try to find you a link to help you diagnose the problem.

Flashing and scratching usually indicate an external problem any thing from ammonia burns on the gills, nitrite problems, parasites,
ich.

I need a breakdown of your water parameters
Ammonia
Nitrites
Nitrates
pH
How old is the tank?
What is your water change routine

Can you observe any physical symptoms, bleeding gills, coloration changes etc.

There are lots of online diagnosis charts to Google.

Get back to us on the information and we will try to zero in on this.

Regards,
Jay

Cichlids4Ever · 08-07-2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

Did he tell you what the common parasite was? Ich, Gill flukes?

If it is ich 1 tsp. of salt per 5 gallons is not enough salt.

What is the pH..it is generally not necessary and very difficult to try to artificially adjust pH.

I so rarely see disease in my tanks I forget symptoms, I will try to find you a link to help you diagnose the problem.

Flashing and scratching usually indicate an external problem any thing from ammonia burns on the gills, nitrite problems, parasites,
ich.

I need a breakdown of your water parameters
Ammonia
Nitrites
Nitrates
pH
How old is the tank?
What is your water change routine

Can you observe any physical symptoms, bleeding gills, coloration changes etc.

There are lots of online diagnosis charts to Google.

Get back to us on the information and we will try to zero in on this.

Regards,
Jay

He didn't say what parasite, but since there were no white spots he ruled out Ich. I don't know if you can have Ich with no spots...Maybe early stages?
He told me 1 Tablespoon of salt for each 5 gallons, is that still too little?
As far as the levels in the tank. Nitrites and Nitrates were normal, Ammonia was slightly elevated but he thinks that may have been due to food that was laying around that the fish didn't like. I had just done a 50% change so I doubt the ammonia was high.
PH was 6, so all I did so far was add 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda but I don't have a test kit at the moment.
The tank was started up in May of 2006.
There are no signs of anything on the fish. Gills are fine, the are very active, they are eating well. The temp is 80.
My water change routine is roughly 50% monthly.

Jay, I just now noticed one of the fish in the tank (not a cichlid) has signs of bloat....Wonder if this helps you?
Hope this helps, and thanks for the reply!

Jay · 08-07-2006, 01:55 PM

Need to know the numbers for

KH
GH

pH of 6 is low and I want to find out what is pushing it down.

What is the pH of your tap water?

Did you detox the water for the water change?

What does normal mean on his readings???

In a cycled tank...
If ammonia is present it is not a normal reading, it should be "0". Perhaps you are overfeeding.

Nitrite should be "0"

Nitrate should be registering at least in the 10ppm area.

Get the KH and GH readings before you put any more bicarb in the tank!

Yes ich can be present in the gills and be very hard to see, so can parasites.

Bloated can be a number of things, but not related to the fish scratching.

Let's fill in the blanks here and develop a plan.

Temp is fine, don't worry about the salt, we really do not know what the problem is yet.

Water change Monthly! I did not see that, weekly is the ticket.

Regards,
Jay

Cichlids4Ever · 08-07-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

Need to know the numbers for

KH
GH

pH of 6 is low and I want to find out what is pushing it down.

What is the pH of your tap water?

Did you detox the water for the water change?

What does normal mean on his readings???

In a cycled tank...
If ammonia is present it is not a normal reading, it should be "0". Perhaps you are overfeeding.

Nitrite should be "0"

Nitrate should be registering at least in the 10ppm area.

Get the KH and GH readings before you put any more bicarb in the tank!

Yes ich can be present in the gills and be very hard to see, so can parasites.

Bloated can be a number of things, but not related to the fish scratching.

Let's fill in the blanks here and develop a plan.

Temp is fine, don't worry about the salt, we really do not know what the problem is yet.

Water change Monthly! I did not see that, weekly is the ticket.

Regards,
Jay

OK, my tap water is from a well. I live right off the James River. The PH of the tap water is normally 7.5.
Yes, the water was detoxed before the change.
What do you use to detox?
I give the fish 1 "regular" size cube of freeze dried brine shrimp a day.
They seem to eat it all within 3 minutes.
I called the pet store again and what he meant by normal was 10ppm nitrate and 0 for nitrite, just as you said.

I did mention to you that when I took the water sample, I had fed them earlier that day and they did not eat the food. I used Cichlid pellets and not one fish ate any. The pet store guy told me that stale food "could" throw off an ammonia reading???

As far as water changes, I guess I need to do 50% weekly?

I should know more this evening when my wife brings home a test kit.
When I do my own testing, I can give you accurate figures, but for now, I gave you what the pet store gave me. Hope you can help

Jay, I am editing this post because I now have noticed whit spots on the non-Cichlid fish that were not there before.
This is all developing as we communicate!

Cichlids4Ever · 08-07-2006, 09:18 PM

Jay,
Here are the numbers I got with my test kit.
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
PH 7.2
Ammonia - 4.0 ????
I did a 50% change yesterday!
I just did another 50% change and it is still 2.0
I give up!

Jay · 08-08-2006, 07:07 AM

Don't give up

Could be several things with the ammonia. Ammonia that high will definitely stress the fish, burn their gills, and shorten their life span.

pH is good, do NOT, add stuff to alter it!!

1. High ammonia and no nitrates indicates a tank that is not cycled. Did you go through the process of cycling the tank? It took me 5 weeks to do my 75. Your readings should be Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates "measurable" ex. "10"

2. Where is that much ammonia comming from, well water, did you test that? Way over feeding?

3. What product are you using to detox the water. Sometimes a product used to remove ammonia will react with some test kits to give you a false positive for ammonia.

We may be dealing with two problems here. I am sending you a quick explanation of tank cycling, let me know what you think. We will get through this, the fish may get beat up a little, but next time you will know how to head it off.

For now..
Frequent water changes 25% a day will keep the ammonia levels down somewhat until the tank can begin to cycle. (if that is indeed one of our problems)

but if you do that you will not be able to treat for Ich unless you buy a pharmaceutical off the shelf. (not generally a good thing)

I still need to see the KH number

Do not add any more baking soda until we get that number

The preferred method to treat for Ich is as follows
1 tsp of salt (any salt, table salt is just fine) per gallon. Add salt over an 8 hour period.

Increase temp to 80 degrees F.

5 to 7 days will do it

You would then do several 50% changes over the next week to back out the salt.

Sooner or later everyones tank throws them a curve ball, that's one of the things that makes this hobby interesting.

Jay

Cichlids4Ever · 08-08-2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

Don't give up

Could be several things with the ammonia. Ammonia that high will definitely stress the fish, burn their gills, and shorten their life span.

pH is good, do NOT, add stuff to alter it!!

1. High ammonia and no nitrates indicates a tank that is not cycled. Did you go through the process of cycling the tank? It took me 5 weeks to do my 75. Your readings should be Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates "measurable" ex. "10"

2. Where is that much ammonia comming from, well water, did you test that? Way over feeding?

3. What product are you using to detox the water. Sometimes a product used to remove ammonia will react with some test kits to give you a false positive for ammonia.

We may be dealing with two problems here. I am sending you a quick explanation of tank cycling, let me know what you think. We will get through this, the fish may get beat up a little, but next time you will know how to head it off.

For now..
Frequent water changes 25% a day will keep the ammonia levels down somewhat until the tank can begin to cycle. (if that is indeed one of our problems)

but if you do that you will not be able to treat for Ich unless you buy a pharmaceutical off the shelf. (not generally a good thing)

I still need to see the KH number

Do not add any more baking soda until we get that number

The preferred method to treat for Ich is as follows
1 tsp of salt (any salt, table salt is just fine) per gallon. Add salt over an 8 hour period.

Increase temp to 80 degrees F.

5 to 7 days will do it

You would then do several 50% changes over the next week to back out the salt.

Sooner or later everyones tank throws them a curve ball, that's one of the things that makes this hobby interesting.

Jay

OK, I DID test the well water and it was 0 ammonia.
Cycling the tank....
My tank went through all that, but I JUST changed the filtering system because the filter I had was undersized for my tank.
I guess with the new filter elements it could have effected the water?
I have 4 Cichlids and a 4 inch catfish and I put one cube of freeze dried brine shrimp in the tank in the morning, and it is gone in 3 minutes or less. Over feeding? I don't know.
The pet store gave my wife an ammonia lock, I don't know the brand, but it seemed to make things worse.
They also sold her "Quick Cure" for Ich and parasites but I didn't use it yet.
I guess you don't care for that?
Last night after I wrote you I did another 25% change but the ammonia is STILL at 2.0 this morning.
Thanks for you help. This forum ia awesome. I hope my fish get through this.
They are really special!
I will begin the process and re-post as soon as things change, onw way or another.
P.S. I gave you all the readings....Pardon my ignorance, but what is KH?

Jay · 08-08-2006, 07:56 AM

KH is total alkalinity. A very confusing term.

Simply put, is a measurement of the waters ability to neutralize acids, which will make the pH drop.

The test kit is cheap, I was concerned about your low pH and the kit would help me understand what is going on in the tank.

Sounds more and more like a crashed cycle, you are just going to have to wait it out. Yes is is very possible that the ammonia lock is giving you elevated ammonia readings, but, with no nitrate readings I do not think your bio filter is healthy.

You are probably not overfeeding, but shrimp, both eaten and excreted is an excellent source of ammonia, as is any fish food really.

I have no experience with that Ich product. I would say if you observe that you need to use it proceed with caution, some of these products can be very toxic.

Jay

Cichlids4Ever · 08-08-2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

KH is total alkalinity. A very confusing term.

Simply put, is a measurement of the waters ability to neutralize acids, which will make the pH drop.

The test kit is cheap, I was concerned about your low pH and the kit would help me understand what is going on in the tank.

Sounds more and more like a crashed cycle, you are just going to have to wait it out. Yes is is very possible that the ammonia lock is giving you elevated ammonia readings, but, with no nitrate readings I do not think your bio filter is healthy.

You are probably not overfeeding, but shrimp, both eaten and excreted is an excellent source of ammonia, as is any fish food really.

I have no experience with that Ich product. I would say if you observe that you need to use it proceed with caution, some of these products can be very toxic.

Jay

Well Jay,
I certainly appreciate all you have done for me.
I am 50 miles from civilization where I live, so the next time I can get to the pet store will be Thursday.
I will pick up a KH test kit at that time.
Until then, I will do the salt thing, do my water changes and if that doesn't do it, I will use the Quick Cure.
I did some research on quick cure and it is listed as the LEAST toxic.

Maybe I should use a different Cichlid food?

Maybe brine just once a week?

Also, I think you are right about the cycle crash.
Changing the filter system probably backfired on me.

Anyway, I will let you know how it turns out.
If it is any consolation, after all those water changes, the fish appear "healthier".