My proposal for a 58 gallon freshwater tank

Iowaquarium · 12-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Ok, I'm cycling my 58 gallon freshwater tank and I've got a few things I need to take care of before I put fish in the first week of January(hopefully). These are the the things that I'm wondering about.

First of all here is my current setup:
Penguin 300 HoB Filter
Visitherm 115V 200W Heater
Dual light hoods each with 2 18" 15 watt lights
Whisper 400 Air pump powering two small air stones
Substrate is river pea gravel

Now that I've got the tank cycling I'm going to need a master test kit to check the water parameters, what would you recommend and where should I buy it from?

For fish I plan on:
4-5 Tiger Barbs
1-2 Clown Loaches
1-2 Plecos (thinking bristle nose, any other suggestions?)
Other than that I think I'm going to go with some cichlids, one of my
roommates has 30-40 yellow lab frye and I think I might try getting 4-6 of those to start with.

Please any other suggestions of fish that would get along with those, I know that I'm going to have to get some less aggressive of the cichlids but my roomate has tiger barbs and clown loaches in his cichlid tank and they're fine. Preferably I'd like to find some blue or purple cichlids to offset all the orange from the barbs and loaches.

The last thing I wanted to ask all of you about is tank decor, I've got some large pieces of drift wood from the previous owner that I would like to use. He had them mounted with some screws and things but he didn't use stainless steel so it rusted which doesn't seem like it could be a good thing for a tank. I know that I'm going to want to pick up some fake plants and was looking for a good website for them, any suggestions? Also I'm not sure how I'm going to go about mounting the driftwood I'm thinking maybe some thin patio tile from a home improvement store with some holes drilled in them and fixed to the wood with stainless steel nuts and bolts. Also I'm going to need to provide some cover maybe common flower pots buried in the gravel?

Thanks everyone for reading, any and all advice would be greatly appreciated!

Tommy Gun · 12-10-2006, 07:52 PM

Good to hear about your new project! Isn't it exciting getting to plan all of this out?

The first thing I would point out is that clown loaches will be much better off if kept in a group of four to five. They will eventually get too large for your tank, especially four or five of them, but they grow so slowly that many people 'get away' with keeping them for years before having to move them to a bigger tank. They will reach upwards of about a foot in lenght and get pretty 'thick' as well.

I also have tiger barbs in my cichlid tank with yellow labs and use them as dither fish. Just make sure to get some tiger barbs that are medium to large, depending on the size of the yellow labs you put in the tank. Tigers will most likely be ok in a tank with most any Malawi Cichlids (like yellow labs). The clown loaches will also be ok, most likely, if you are sure to keep the male to female ratio of your cichlids around 1 male to three to four females. This way there isnt a less dominant male that has time to pick on the loaches. Having clown loaches and tiger barbs in the same tank, from my experience with doing the same in the past, will sort of bring the tiger barbs down within the tank and they will become more bottom to mid tank dwellers where are usually they are mid to top tank dwellers. I noticed that before, when I had clown loaches, and now that I do not have them anymore, the tigers are usually in the upper regions of the tank all the time.

It is kind of important to create as many hiding places in your tank as you can with either rocks or the plant pots like you mention. If you were to have no clown loaches in the tank, you could create a decor will little to no hiding places, but with the loaches, you will want to offer them as many places to run and hide at a moment's notice. I might also put the tiger barbs and loaches in your tank before you put the yellow labs in the tank, just to make sure that they are established and unstressed before you put aggressive fish in there. I realize that yellow labs are known to be non-aggressive, but this is only compared to other cichlids and would still be considered aggressive fish compared to community fish. Tiger barbs are semi-aggressive and can almost always hold their own with the smaller cichlids like yellow labs.

As far as some other cichlds of blue and/or purple cichlids, check out or google for P. Salousi and maybe Demonsoni. They are both blue with darker black or purple stripes on them. I have also kept an Electric Blue Johanni before, and they are very nice looking. If I remember right, the Salousi are going to be slightly less aggressive fish than the Demonsoni and/or Johanni, but there are some good tactics you can employ to make things work, one of which would be dither fish like tiger barbs.

Bottom line is that you have to keep an eye on the tank for a while to make sure that you do not have one particularly aggressive fish in the tank or vice-versa and one fish is getting picked on too much. I would especially keep an eye on the clown loaches. Maybe take some time to watch your friends loaches so you can notice how they are most always on the bottom of the tank and forrage around in the substrate for food. If it happens that one or more of your loaches begins swimming near the top of the tank alot or is hiding in the upper parts of a plant, then you should assume that it is getting picked on too much and wants to get away from the source of the problem. I would watch especially closely when your cichlids begin to mate as they will really become aggressive and defensive of their territories. Again, this is why it is best to have one male to three or four females, or more, in a tank.

If you want a lot of different cichlids in one tank, let us know as there are some good ways of keeping one fish from multiple species and we can help you with that.

jd@ga · 12-10-2006, 10:01 PM

Hey I saw in another forum that you washed your tank and equipment in soapy water. You are gonna have so much trouble with your tank that it is gonna set you back about 6 months until all that finally works itself out of your tank. NEVER USE SOAP, sorry to be the messenger of bad news.

Iowaquarium · 12-10-2006, 10:42 PM

jd@ga
I mainly washed the light hood enclosures and things that aren't actually in the tank itself soaking them in the warm soapy water. The tank itself I cleaned with bleach, your concerns are noted though and that's why I would like to get a test kit so that I can check the tank parameters, what test kits do all of you use and is there any particular internet supplier you use for you aquarium purchases?

Tommy Gun
I'm actually thinking about putting in the yellow lab frye first as they would be the smallest fish at that time. You can see from the picture that they are very small right now, but hopefully in a months time they will be closer to the size of yours.

Everything else sounds great, my friend actually has some of the blue fish you recommended so I'm not sure if I want to end up with a completely identical tank to his. Still wondering what type of pleco I should go for and if there are any good websites for ordering test kits and decorations. I also have been recently searching the internet for a good aquarium fish guide what do you mainly use to look up information on specific fish? My LFS has got some peacock cichlids that are amazing looking and I wonder if those would go with the other fish I have in mind.

Andyoybna · 12-11-2006, 05:35 PM

a blue cobalt zebra would do well, or red zebra, they are pretty peaceful for cichlids

As far as the clown loaches getting picked on by the cichlids... i really doubt it, loaches can hold their own against even the toughest cichlids, plus... they have no need to fight they have different needs/wants and like different parts of the tank. the only problem ive had with cichlids and loaches is, i bought 2 SMALL clown loaches, like an inch, inch and a half maybe, and apparently my green severum thought he looked like lunch, because i only see one now...

So as long as there isnt a huge size difference, like an 8 inch severum, and a 1 inch clown loach, you should be ok... i cant hate my severum for that though, i cought my clown knife eating a fan dancer goby 1 day 10.99 meal... ouch

also, you could maybe add kuhli or dojo loaches, they do an excellent job of cleaning the gravel and have really cool behavior.

And as far as using tiger barbs for dither fish.... id reccomend giant danios, much faster, and actually probably a bit tougher than tiger barbs... at least more hardy

Tommy Gun · 12-11-2006, 09:29 PM

I personally love the the tiger barbs as dither fish, lol! I have 8 big ones and they are as aggressive as my yellow labs and have held their own in a tank with M. Auratus! I agree with giant danios as well though, very good dithers. On the other hand, larger tiger barbs could be kept in a tank with larger cichlids, maybe not a full grown severum, but with your 8 incher probrably. You can see how large my tiger barbs are though by using the link in my sig and going into the "FW pictures" album. They get much larger than I think a lot of people realize. They are also one of the most mismatched fish and I think get a bad rap from people who put them in tanks with more meek fish that get nipped up quickly. I think they are awesome tankmates for cichlids, of certain types (Mbuna).

Try looking at Drs. Foster and Smith's webiste (http://www.liveaquaria.com/default.cfm?siteid=20 <---directly to the fish section). They have everything from decorations to fish and inverts of all kinds. I suggest requesting their free catalog as well. I find it is a good, quick reference for looking up particular types of fish and have lots of plants (fake and real) to look at and order.

When I am researching fish, I use the largest aquarium guide in the world...the internet! I try to google or yahoo search a common name in order to find the scientific name and search using that. I find that using the scientific name is better for finding good info it reduces all the 'riff raff' of other people's pictures and odd companies that are named something like "Guppy Electronics Inc." (made that up so I take no responsibility if that is a real company!!!!

)

Plecos for your tank are totally optional, so dont feel like you are obligated to get one. If you want one because you just...want one, then navigate that Drs Foster and Smith website to get to the pleco page. Or, I can do it for ya! Here you go: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/s...cfm?pCatId=837 You want to get a small one, so pay attention to the sizes. I would look for something around six inches, give or take two inches. The clown pleco is amazing, IMO...as well as the Tiger pleco (6") and the Zebra Pleco (3"). Otherwise, go back to the freshwater fish page of that website and go to 'sucker mouth cats' and check out the Otocinclus catfish. I hear they are very cool, can be kept in groups, and eat diatoms, but I am just going off memory here so check into that info.

My yellow lab fry got pretty large in about a months time. In fact, I just added four of them to my main tank yesterday. Check out my pics in the freshwater forum (Ive been a busy boy, I think is the name) to see a couple of them. You can see how big my tiger barbs are as well.

Iowaquarium · 12-12-2006, 03:56 PM

Andyoybna
I really like the fact that you brought up dojo louches, I used to have them when I was younger and I really loved their unique behavior. My only concern is that dojos prefer somewhat softer and colder water than the yellow labs would require. Also I'm want to go with the tiger barbs for dither fish because of the way that they match up with the clown loaches.

Tommy Gun
Wow! I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write out a reply like that, thanks! I have been reading your other threads and I've seen the pictures of your tanks, it's a lot of what I've been using while making my decisions. I guess we'll have to wait and see if my friend's yellow lab fry are going to be big enough come January, they are already coming in with some black along their fins. I know it will be necessary for me to sex them so I get a good male:female ratio, how many do you guys think I should take? One male per three females?

Also I've looked some at Dr. Foster & Smith's website and it looks fine, I was just wondering if anyone had any wholesale aquarium supply sites that have great deals that they like to use. Come to think of it I requested their free catalog quite a while ago. More than likely I'll go ahead and order a test kit through them, I'm probably going to try and pick up some fake plants from an eBay store that seems reputable.

I'll look into those different types of plecos that you listed, what do you think of the bristle nose pleco? I've heard that they are the best cleaners around.

My only other questions for the time being are how do I fix my drift wood to keep it from floating in my tank? I'm going to shop around today and see if I can't find some pieces of patio tile or slate that I could drill holes in and screw the drift wood to using stainless steel bolts so that it won't react with the aquarium. If anyone else has done anything similar to this please let me know.

Lastly, does anyone know anything about peacock cichlids I've researched some and they seem pretty docile would the tiger barbs and yellow labs pick on them too much? They have got amazing coloration and I would love to get a pair.

Thanks again everyone for reading and for any advice you may have to offer.

Tommy Gun · 12-12-2006, 08:18 PM

It is always my pleasure to share my opinions and push them off on others!!!! LOL, just kidding. I do feel that if everyone else thought like I do, it would be a much easier place to live though!

I would not worry too much about sexing yellow labs right away. Honestly, I have at least two males in my tank right now, but cannot identify the second male right now. Eggspots are an ok indicator, but not always foolproof. Some females grow fake eggspots if they are dominant in the tank. I seperated my male for a few days one time (he was being mean to one fish in particular) and I ended up having two females with mouth fulls of eggs in his absense, and had fry. So, it is sometimes hard with these labs to tell, and they are usually calm enough to keep two males to eight females, which is what i have now.

Yellow labs are going to be pretty passive towards most other cichlids. I think this is a good time to strategize how and in what order you will stock the tank. I would put in the least aggressive fish first, allow them to become established, and then move on to the next higher aggressive fish. From what I know about the peacocks, they are on the low end of aggressiveness, but keep in mind that one or two in a bunch can be overly mean or super passive. It is best to deal with those fish on a one-by-one basis. I found a few LFS that will let me trade one fish for another, such as when I end up with a fish that is too big for its britches, or too many males. I really really really highly suggest you network some stores in your area. It cant hurt to ask if they would be willing to help you out, especially if they are not the ones losing money on anything.

I am not sure about the wood though. I thought most people just soak it in a bucket until it is water logged enough to not float. Otherwise, maybe you could just use some fishing line of a high strength to tie it to a rock that you can cover by your substrate. I think that would take out any risk of having metal in the tank and you couldnt really see the fishing line if you did some imaginative placement of plants and decor. I wouldnt use a poured concrete block though. They can dissolve over time. Maybe a nice peice of slate that you can tie underneath the largest part of the wood and then use that to weigh it down and just place some substrate around the slate and have two focal points in there.

I like the Bristlenose plecos and have one of my own. They are ok for algea, but plecos overall are not the best. A BN pleco however, can keep up with nearly any of the smaller cichlids like Yellow labs and Peacocks.

Andyoybna · 12-12-2006, 08:21 PM

ahhh as far as the driftwood, i read an article a while back.... drill a hole in a piece of slate, and use a stainless steel screw to attatch it to the wood, cover the slate up with substrate, and you have instant driftwood

Andyoybna · 12-12-2006, 08:26 PM

oh and as far as the dojo loaches liking colder soft water, i havnt had a problem with them in my central american cichlid tank, it stays around 80, and my water out of the tap is pretty hard

i believe kuhlis are traditionally warmer water fish though, and exhibit a lot of the same behavior as the dojos, also i am going to try some kuhlis in my african tank, very dirty fish....