PH Crash Ammonia Spike but Fish Fine!

bbarron88 · 08-22-2008, 06:06 PM

Hello. I have been a live plant/Discus aquarium hobbyist for 20 years. I recently bought a 125 gallon acrylic with built in wet/dry filter (in the back of the tank). I set it up for cycling 5 weeks ago. I followed my normal cycle procedures, adding a few plants, two Amazon swords, three small Anubius, and a piece of driftwood with java moss growing on it. I also added 15 Rasbora Hex. I watched the cycle for the first three weeks, and saw the normal levels (ammonia raised, then began dropping, nitrites began to raise, then finally nitrates). The cycle seemed to finish about the third week mark ammonia 0, ph 6.5, nitrites and nitrates 0.0. I then added 50 cardinals, 15 panda cory cats, and 5 Dwarf Blue Rams. Everything was very healthy and happy. About a week later (at the four week mark) I added 10 small discus and three more amazon sword plants, a couple of hygro, and four java fern. Everything still seemed to be happy and healthy. Water crystal clear, plants growing, fish happy and eating all week.

At the beginning of the 5th week, I did a scheduled 25% water change (straight water change, not disturbing the gravel). I prune the dead leaves and remove dying plant matter at bottom of tank. then just suck water out and water in. I've found that in the past this works very well. Every other month I do a light gravel vacuum with the water change....Anyways, the next morning after doing the water change, the water was cloudier than usual. I thought it would go away after a day or so, figuring it was just the introduction of the new water. Well, it just kept getting cloudier and cloudier by the hour. I tested the water and the ammonia was 8+ YIKES.
At first I thought the test kit was bad, because all of the fish were doing great, even the Discus. So I bought another test kit. Still tested 8.0 ammonia. I checked the PH and it was bright yellow, seemed to be lower than 6.0. This alarmed me because I always keep it at about 6.8. My tap water is 7.5 and the driftwood brings it down to about 6.8. This is the way I've always done my discus/plant tanks for the past 20 years with no problem. This tank seemed to be following the same track, until this ammonia problem.

So I did a 50% water change and cleaned the filter sponges and replaced the strainer pad. Added Ammolock, Prime, and StressCoat. The PH and Ammonia were back to normal (levels 6.8 and .5). The water was also a little clearer. The next morning the levels were back to dangerous, but the fish were all doing fine. So, I did another 50% water change. Levels returned to normal and water began clearing up. The next day the water was still clear, fish all still doing fine, but ammonia back up to 8+ and ph back down below 6.0.

I started talking to various tropical fish store owners in the area, research online, and reading some old plant/discus fish books I have. This all led me to believe I had a PH crash going on. I suspected that the introduction to a large volume of fish and plants at one time caused an ammonia spike and acid production caused a ph crash. Figuring the ph crash killed off a lot of the biological bacteria, I did another 50% water change and added the alloted amount of Safestart (supposed to be nitrosomonoas and and nitrobacters). They guarantee the tank to be ready to stock with fish after adding this. I hoped that this would replace any of the bacteria that died from the ph crash. I also added some Neutral regulator 7.0 from Seachem. This has seemed to help as the ph doesn't drop overnight, but it is still going down below 6.5 and the ammonia is back to 8+...

All the while the fish are doing great!!! I have stopped the water changes after adding the safestart thinking that the tank may need to go through another cycle with this new added bacteria. Its been a couple of days now and the water is crystal clear, all fish and plants still doing great. I've cut down my feeding and remove any dead leaves as I see them. But the levels are not changing. Ammonia still 8+ ph going to the 6.0 mark 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.

So at this point I'm not sure if I should continue with the water changes or just leave the tank alone for a couple of weeks and let it balance out. There is something driving the PH down abnormally fast in relation to my past tanks, and the ph buffer does not seem to be working all that well. The thing that is weird is that the fish are all fine. No deaths whatsoever. I'm guessing not to worry about the ammonia because of the ammolock. But I'm worried that another ph crash will kill my biological bacteria and that I may come home to a dead tank one day.. Yet everyday, the fish are happy and healthy.

Some people say I should continue doing at least 25% water changes daily until pH stabilizes and continue using ammolock until ammonia levels come down. Others say I should leave the tank alone and let it go through its normal cycle process, because it is really not finished cycling, possibly the water changes are causing prolonged cycling process.
So I don?t know if the fish are doing well because I?ve been doing the water changes, or despite them.

I was wondering what you all thought about this situation. Any suggestions or ideas? Leave it alone? Continue water changing? Add coral? Remove some fish? Add anything else to the aquarium?

orb4me · 08-23-2008, 01:31 PM

BB, with this site having problems yesterday and today, the experts prob cant get here with really good advise.

Im just fumbling around here with your question, and I guess Im answering your question with questions. (that drives me crazy)

ammonia lock? will that lock the ammonia at the level it is when Ammolock is put in the tank? Swimming pools can get a chlorine lock, the test kits will show chlorine, the water will be sl cloudy, and actually there is no chlorine in the pool.

Are you using the correct ph up or down stuff?

What are the nitrite levels?

I dont know enough about all the chemicals, so this is just ideas Im throwing at you, till someone comes along. They will. Please dont take insult, Im still learning.

Dr.Fragenstein · 08-23-2008, 02:11 PM

I just posted like a page long novel on what to do but this site says I didn't have the ability to post here.

Long story short w/o sounding hasty(I'm just fed up with the posting issues!!) the NH3 is not toxic at the moment as the lower you pH goes the more NH3 is converted into NH4 which is FAR less toxic. What is your kH? This will determine the buffering capacity of the water. I honestly doubt you have a pH crash unless your bioload is outrageous or the kH is incredibly low. Test the kH, and also test the pH in the a.m. and in the p.m. some time. This will help determine the course of action.
I would NOT raise the pH at this point because that would not only stress the fish but also convert the NH4 back to NH3 potentially killing the fish.

I would not add the coral! I honestly would sit tight until you post the kH and pH levels

RJRofFL · 08-23-2008, 04:26 PM

Hey Dr F,

Pardon my jumping in here.

I think the problem with your "page long novel" stems from the limitation of 10,000 characters on posts.

Don't feel bad. When I attempted to post my now "sticky" on Fishless Cycling for Dummies" I got the same message. Took me forever to cull it down!

The character limitation applies to all of us, so it wasn't just you. And you certainly know you are welcome to post anywhere here.

Ironically, it seems that Tommy Gunn always manages to just stay within that limit when he posts! ha ha

Good luck with the ammonia problem, bbaron, you've received good advice so far.

Bob

Jay · 08-24-2008, 08:34 AM

I concur it sounds like a KH problem and would like to see the numbers.

If you have put in an ammonia reducing chemical your test kit will still register total ammonia compounds. I agree with DrF, do not raise your pH just yet.

I am also wondering if the new acrylic is leaching surfactants into the water. I would contact the tank manufacturer to see if they have had any issues on new tank start ups.

Looking for the numbers...

Jay

orb4me · 08-24-2008, 06:08 PM

maybe by seaclear. The same manufacturing co makes about all the acrylic tanks. I thought I still had the phone number, they make a tank that the lid doesnt come off. I sent back 2 anc cancelled an order for the 3ed one. IMO, they are not an easy co to work with. I thought I was very nice in the email, no answer, and with msg on their phone. Finally with petco help I talked to Don. he said nothing wrong with tank and if I sent it back I had to pay restocking fee $25. I was upset to say the least.

Well, anyway, I hope you get some info on your idea Jay. The 2 tanks that I received still had strips of gluey stuff on the edges and really stacticy with clinging syrofoam..