UGF and Water Changes

FilteredFun · 03-17-2008, 04:51 PM

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I are just beginning .... we're in the early planning stage w/ lots of reading on this forum and on other on-line sources.

I have two areas that I need a better understanding. If some of you could offer suggestions from your experience, that would be wonderful and really appreciated. It helps us as we move forward in our purchase and set-up planning.

I am planning on an external Eheim canister as our primary filtration system, but dual systems sounds like an excellent idea. A UGF or a HOB filter are my back-up considerations to supplement the canister.

[1] UGF ... I fully understand their function. I am unclear how to "maintain" a UGF so it does not become a negative.

Question: Does the entire UGF need to be removed [or exposed] for some type of periodical cleaning???

[2] Water Changes ... I understand that this has many benefits. The range of recommendations as to how often and how much removal each time is quite varied - that's a topic for a different time. For now, I am trying to pinpoint the process. I read that removing nitrates is one of its bigger accomplishments. My confusion is that I am unclear how to remove larger quantities of water from a living room tank that is not near a sink, a drain, or water hook ups.

Question #1: What is better: (a) using a bucket or (b) using a siphon???

Question #2: How do you match the temperature of the water being added to the temperature of the water remaining in the tank???

Question #2B: The replacement water has none of the long term [been cycled] benefits that are inherent with the water being removed. How do you compensate for this, or does this not matter???

Question #3: If you use a bucket, do you (a) remove a bucket then add a bucket and continue with this one for one approach or (b) remove X buckets and then add X buckets???

Question #4: If you use a siphon, do you siphon all the water intended before adding its replacement water or do you siphon and add simultaneously???

I have asked a lot in one post. My apologies. Thank You in advance for dealing with such basic issues that are most certainly better suited for the beginner's area.

Sincerely,
Matt and Kathleen

gm333 · 03-17-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FilteredFun

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I are just beginning .... we're in the early planning stage w/ lots of reading on this forum and on other on-line sources.

I have two areas that I need a better understanding. If some of you could offer suggestions from your experience, that would be wonderful and really appreciated. It helps us as we move forward in our purchase and set-up planning.

I am planning on an external Eheim canister as our primary filtration system, but dual systems sounds like an excellent idea. A UGF or a HOB filter are my back-up considerations to supplement the canister.

[1] UGF ... I fully understand their function. I am unclear how to "maintain" a UGF so it does not become a negative.
The best way to maintain a UGF is using powerheads on them that are capable of reverse flow. This way you can backwash the waste that gets trapped under the UGF. I have used UGF's in the past and found them to be a big pain and ended up getting rid of everyone of them. They build up nitrates if not used correctly and kept clean.
Question: Does the entire UGF need to be removed [or exposed] for some type of periodical cleaning???
NO.
[2] Water Changes ... I understand that this has many benefits. The range of recommendations as to how often and how much removal each time is quite varied - that's a topic for a different time. For now, I am trying to pinpoint the process. I read that removing nitrates is one of its bigger accomplishments. My confusion is that I am unclear how to remove larger quantities of water from a living room tank that is not near a sink, a drain, or water hook ups.

Question #1: What is better: (a) using a bucket or (b) using a siphon???
Depends on the user. I at one point had over 8 freshwater tanks to do waterchanges on. Using the siphon was a no-brainer for me. Now I only have onw freshwater tank and find that the bucket method is much faster.
Question #2: How do you match the temperature of the water being added to the temperature of the water remaining in the tank???
You need to get the temp as close as possible. I would recommend a fishing thermometer for this. IF you dont have one to use make sure the new water is just a few degrees cooler than the tank water. The fish get less stressed with cooler water. Its kind of like a rainstorm. Most of the time the rain is cooler than the lake temps.

Question #2B: The replacement water has none of the long term [been cycled] benefits that are inherent with the water being removed. How do you compensate for this, or does this not matter???
Does not matter, just make sure you dechlorinate the water. The bacteria that is eveolved from a cycle is mainly in your filters, deco, and gravel.
Question #3: If you use a bucket, do you (a) remove a bucket then add a bucket and continue with this one for one approach or (b) remove X buckets and then add X buckets???
I generally pull all of the water out of the tank I want to take out first, then add the dechlorinated water back in. I dont top off the tank first before a waterchange.

Question #4: If you use a siphon, do you siphon all the water intended before adding its replacement water or do you siphon and add simultaneously???
Same as bucket, take out desired water add desired water back in. Difference being her is when you fill the water back up with syphon you need to add the dechlorinator to the tank first.

I have asked a lot in one post. My apologies. Thank You in advance for dealing with such basic issues that are most certainly better suited for the beginner's area.
Not a problem, thats what all of us are here for.
Sincerely,
Matt and Kathleen

All the answers are in red in the quote.

FilteredFun · 03-17-2008, 08:06 PM

Thank You !!!!!!!!!!!

I think I am going to steer clear of the UGF approach. With todays high tech canister and HOB filtration systems, I will rely on those designs with a consistent schedule of water changes and substrate siphoning.

Our Sincere Thanks!
Matt and Kathleen

tropical1 · 03-17-2008, 09:04 PM

he forgot to add one thing about changing your water. just make sure when you doa water change that you dont change too much at one time. just do around 20-25% water changes, any more could stress the fish alot and cause a hickup in the whole operation. i did it before and damn near killed all the fish with ich.

FilteredFun · 03-17-2008, 10:31 PM

dont change too much at one time. just do around 20-25% water changes, any more could stress the fish alot and cause a hickup in the whole operation.

OK. Thanks!

BTW, do you use a siphon or a bucket?

And, if a siphon, might you offer a brand name and briefly describe your technique. I am gaining positive momentum as my confidence grows: albeit from none to now 1 on a scale of 10 [w/ 10 being the highest rating possible].

I have selected two books that I plan to purchase sometime soon.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Tropic...pd_sim_b_img_1

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-A...d_bxgy_b_img_b

I think this tandem will provide me with a solid foundation from which I can purchase other texts to supplement topics needing more in-depth coverage. I am certain that these two books will likewise generate a whole slew of questions that I can then hound all of you with ... :-\

RustyNut · 03-18-2008, 04:50 PM

The plant book is nice to have, but the setup book is probably a waste of money since all that info is available here for free in the article section and supported by the forums.

Jay · 03-18-2008, 05:48 PM

IMO, unlike Tropical's, large water changes are extremely beneficial. I change out 50 to 75% weekly. Granted my tanks are heavily planted and I dose nutrients and CO2, which large water changes help to keep from accumulating.

Consider this... Once the tank is cycled and is supporting a bio load (fish, plants, critters, bio films, algae bacteria etc.) you begin to get a build up of organic compounds including fish waste, phenols, fish slime, protein, PO4 from fish food, and NO4 (nitrates) from the bacterial action on the organic compounds. All this is called DOC (dissolved organic compounds). Filters (unless you are spending lavishly on special scavenging resins, and even then) do not filter this stuff out.

Better than a book, hey, because we can interact.

If your tank accumulates this stuff at a rate of say (let's use YUCK (Y) as our measurement

) 20 Y per week and you do a 25% water change, you have left 15 Y. Next week your tank accumulates another 20Y plus the 15Y you left from last week...and so on. You can see the simply presented trend here?

The next post we get to deal with is...my fish are dieing my Y it off the charts, but I do water changes...

RustyNut and GM333 have also given you some excellent advice. Do a Google Search for a "python" water change system, or go look at Dr. Foster and Smith fish supplies web site, hauling buckets of water gets old really fast.

Regards,
Jay

FilteredFun · 03-18-2008, 09:47 PM

Next week your tank accumulates another 20Y plus the 15Y you left from last week...and so on. You can see the simply presented trend here?

Great point ... and another strong justification to change out the water consistently. It also makes perfect sense to do smaller, more frequent change-outs. It's less stress on the fish, and it lessens the size of the fluctuations when monitoring the water's contents.

Thank You for your input.

:Matt

orb4me · 03-22-2008, 02:19 PM

Jay, are you talking FW or SW with the 50 to 75% w/c?

Filteredfun. Welcome to the site, and dont worry about the questions you ask. I've been here since Nov., and Im still asking basic stuff. Then to top it off, I forgot one of the most basic (smaller tanks will start showing bad stuff much quicker than larger tanks) and if it wasnt for Tommy Gunn ( a mod ), I would have lost my little fish.

RJRofFL · 04-09-2008, 07:08 PM

Hi Matt. Let me add my warm welcome to this forum.

Please allow me to add my two cents in the form of two recommendations:

1, By all means go for the Python Syphon System. It is sooo easy to use and saves time as well as a back ache. (Man's back was made for laying down on, not support for lifting heavy water buckets.) You use the same hose for filling as you do for siphoning (just remember to drain the "yuck" water siphoned out before switching to fill.) Try it, you'll like it.

2. Please give consideration to doing a "fishless cycle". FTF has an excellent article on it. It is truly the way to start this hobby (in the 21st century), and is not only the most humane way, but easiest to control.

Best of luck to you both. Enjoy this marvelous hobby.

And, by the way, has anyone told you that this hobby can become addictive? Ha Ha.

Bob