Loman

Skennedy,

I do not understand the zero Nitrate reading if the cycle is complete. I would expect some level of Nitrates for some time (maybe forever) When was the last fish loss? The readings look good. Really too good wrt the Nitrates.

I have not used Bio-Zyme. I looked it up and it claims to be vitrifying bacteria similar to many other products. There are a couple of threads going right now on this topic and some of these products do seem to help somewhat. Take a read at: http://www.fishtankforums.com/5-fres...1746-race.html

I would never recommend a product that I have not used but I also can not say it is a problem. In general I think LFS over state the effectiveness of these type products. If your readings are really correct I do not think you need it as your cycle appears to be complete The zero nitrate reading just keeps bugging me though. Maybe BJP and Tommy will have some thoughts

__________________
Loman

24 Gallon Salt Aquapod
20 Gallon Freshwater
Various QT tanks
2 x 75 Gallon Reefs in planning stage

Skennedy

Okay so I just re looked at the test tubes before I cleaned them out. The nitrate one is a little closer to the next color than the yellow. Do you usually touch the tube to the card to read it or hold it just above the white on the card? If I touch the white it looks closer to the orange color.

The other thing I noticed today is that my black molly seems much much happier. The last fish loss in the 46 gallon was my white molly. She died a few days ago. We also lost a leopard danio in my son's tank on the same day. A day prior to those we lost a platy in my other son's tank.

What do you think? *btw - you are all such a HUGE help. I really really appreciate it.

BJP

The two bio-wheels are very good at gassing off CO2 and should also be capable of gassing off some of the ammonia. In a tank that large it's going to take some time for accumulation of ammonia even without the bio-wheels. It's possible that between the two factors, if you haven't stocked the tank heavily with fish you may just gradually ease into a nitrate accumulation with little testable spikes to ammonia and nitrite. I've seen it happen on larger tanks a number of times having sold Penguins and Emporers almost exclusively for years. It's another one of those factors that made it hard for people to bring me over to the side of fishless cycling. I'm showing testible ammonia and nitrite now in my 5 gallon but you'd have to add about 45 hungry catfish, 2 to 3 inches in size to duplicate my stocking levels while feeding twice a day. It doesn't sound like you added anything close to that.

Another avenue of posability is the baskets. That particular model used to come with two baskets you could fill with alternative media. I'm assuming the new improved version does as well. Have you added ammocarbon or ammo chips or any other product capable of removing ammonia to them or are they empty.

Skennedy

I did not add anything extra to the filter. We just installed it as it came in the box.

I do only have 3 serapae tetras and one molly in the tank.

BJP

I think you see what I'm referring to then. There's just not enough fish load to get you in a lot of trouble quickly. Just in case though lets go over a couple things.

I'm not great at judging colors myself but I tend to get close to the card but not actually touch it. either way though, if you'd processed any amount of ammonia capable of showing a lethal spike through to nitrate, you would have no doubt about a color change since the math is weird. 1ppm ammonia can translate to 5ppm nitrite and then maybe 10 to 20 ppm nitrate. I don't have the exact ratio yet but if you give me a few weeks I can probably nail it down a little more exact. In my current test tanks, one tank has already turned less than 4ppm ammonia into 20ppm nitrate and about 20ppm nitrite based on a dillution test yesterday of the nitrite level. I'm expecting something in the 40to 80ppm range for nitrate by the time the ammonia is gone and all of the nitrite gets converted. If you're not getting a huge nitrate reading, you didn't have a major spike to the ammonia yet.

Another point is you really have to shake bottle two of the liquid API nitrate test really well or it can give false readings.

Skennedy

I did shake the bottle for the time they said to - I think it was 30 seconds.

So, if I understand then it is unlikely that I had the spikes already since we are not showing considerable numbers in nitrates. In other words, my tanks are not cycled and are moving slowly??

BJP

I don't like the way I phrased that so let me try again.

If you're not getting a huge nitrate reading, you didn't have a major spike to the ammonia that was processed through to nitrate. That means the tank hasn't fully cycled yet. This may take a while. It's possible you may never get a testible spike to the ammonia and nitrite but continue monitoring all 3 until you get accumulation steadily to the nitrate reading.

With your load I don't think you have anything to fear or any need for bottled additives of any brand. Continue to bring the fish in slowly through quarantine tanks once the nitrate starts to accumulate.

BJP

Bingo

See response above for more detail.

Tommy Gun

Not that either one needs me to, but I just wanted support what Loman and BJP are bringing up here...three small fish are going to need some time before they can mess up 40-some gallons of water...but dont worry, it will happen someday.

I am not 100% sure if BJP is saying that you can start to stock up your tank right now or not, but I just want to point out that your tank is not cycled, so the more fish you add, you are just getting that cycle started faster, you are not going to avoid it completely. I am bringing this up because it is not always good to add some types of fish to a cycling tank...but I think that was already brought up. Basically, the scaleless fish like alot or most of the catfishes and loaches will suffer more from ammonia burns than other fish...and this includes a lot of the tetra family. More or less, the fish that cannot handle much salt in the water, would have the same problems with ammonia and nitrites.

I would also point out that if you are doing water changes during all of this, you would not have the huge nitrate spike at the end...since you are taking them out with the water. Usually the really high nitrates are most common in a cycled tank in which no water changes have happened.

However, I just read a bit more and I agree with Loman in that the fish you had die do sound like high ammonia could be to blame...or chlorine. If you are using a dechlor conditioner every time, make sure it is in the right amount and all that to reduce the odds that it is chlorine. Do you have city water or well water (sorry if you said that already)? I ask because you may want to use a dechlor conditioner that also removes chloramines if you have city water. That would release some ammonia into your tank, and in general, those same chlorine/chloramine treatments would detoxify the released ammonia as far as the fish are concerned, but your bacteria can still use it. BJP knows more about the science behind that than I can explain clearly.

Skennedy

No worries - I have no intentions of adding more fish to any of the tanks. That said, I do want them to cycle and not for months.

I have been watching BJPs thread on his test tanks - very intriguing. I am wondering if the Biozyme is similiar to Biospera and if I should consider using it in my tanks since they are not cycled.