88keys

Hello, I'm new to fishkeeping and to this site...great forum btw
I've been cycling my 55 gal for 6 weeks now...very turbulent 6 weeks it's been...lost 4 of 6 goldfish to ammonia poisoning, and finally surrendered last 2 to store...very sick...had been adding Rid-Ick meds for 2 weeks....constantly have struggled with ammonia ranging from 0.25 to 3.0 ppm...yes I'm using ammonia remover, conditioners, stability bacteria....I'm trying very hard and getting very frustrated...but I"m determined to figure this out...just need HELP from seasoned fishkeepers PLEASE!!! I am currently keeping 2 apple snails in tank...I need to fix this water problem before I kill any more fish!!! YIKES!! What can I do ....???

Tommy Gun

In my opinion and experience, I feel strongly that using all sorts of chemicals and gadgets to aid in both cycling a tank as well as maintaining one are not needed (besides dechlor conditioner). My reasoning is pretty simple, the tank can do it on its own without too much help and they just prolong the actual cycle and while it may be possible to put fish in the tank sooner than otherwise, eventually when you forget to add something once or twice or decide not to use an ammonia pillow anymore will come back to haunt you.

If you are not familiar with it, you should read this sticky thread by Jay on how to do a fishless cycle: http://www.fishtankforums.com/5-fres...cycle-how.html

Basically, I think that your tank is obviously not cycled and this is the reason for your ammonia levels as well as the likely cause of your fishes' deaths. I also think that you could have overdosed on your Ich meds since this is easy to do and would also cause deaths in your tank's residents. Since I do not know exactly what you are familiar with or not, please do not be offended by saying that. It is always so important to follow directions to a tee as well as do the needed water changes between doses.

I think that your best bet is to become familiar with the fishless cycling and go with that route and refrain from using meds, chemicals (except dechlor and pure ammonia) or pillows for dealing with ammonia. The ammonia levels in your tank are going to need to be high for a while in order to feed your bacteria and establish them well enough to keep your water healthy. Once started, a tank will be able to cycle itself with minimal effort by you, for example not having to buy or add anything that is not all natural and good for the tank.

So, stay upbeat about this situation, it happens or has happened to all of us. The key is to stay patient and wait things out. Once the tank is cycled, you are basically going to have much less problems and be able to keep all the fish you put in the tank for the most part. Just dont give up yet!

TetraKeeper

When I first started in this hobby, I had no knowledge of the nitrogen cycle and why it is needed. No one asked me at the shop if it was a new tank set up. Naturally, all six of my fish died inside of two hours in a 20 gallon setup.

I would just keep the snails and test for ammonia and nitrite until you get 0 readings.

Cichlids4Ever

Hello and welcome...
Everybody has given you great advice before me. Here's my 2 cents from hard experience.

First off, ammonia removers don't work. It just disguises the reading you get when testing. Keep your tank chemical free if at all possible.

There are numerous articles if you just do an Internet search for "fishless cycling", or just please read what Tommy Gun posted about Jay's fishless cycling. You can't lose...

I can tell you that my most successful fishless cycle is just starting now.
I used the peelings from raw shrimp.
I added them to a filter media bag which you can pick up for 2 bucks, maybe cheaper.
I hung the shrimp skins near the water flow inside the tank.
After 2 days, I had an ammonia reading oF 5PPM.

Then I added Stress Zyme which is a bacteria. You can also use a product called Cycle.

After about a week, maybe 2, your nitrites will rise and your ammonia will drop off.
Then nitrates will come into play and you will see the nitrites drop off.

When nitrites and ammonia are at zero, do a 50% water change and enjoy your hobby.
Add your fish at that point.

The only other way I have cycled a tank was to use a hearty fish that just won't quit.
You can get feeder goldfish cheap. Put them in and just keep testing water till your ammonia and nitrites are zero.

Only thing is....even goldfish suffer...So...go with the fishless cycle and be patient...
Everyone here will tell you patience is the key.

__________________
Joe

"In an Octopuses Garden In The Shade"


75 gallon tank
4 P. Kennyi
2 Snow White Socolofi
4 Yellow Labs
2 Electric Blue Ahli
I Pleco
7 plants
3 Tuffa stones - Lots of bridges and caves!
Air stones
White Gravel with crushed coral mix
Fluval 405
Ceramic Rings and foam

Loman

Welcome to the forum.

Great advice so far. The only thing I would add is that you do not really even need to add the Stress Zyme or Cycle. IMO this products are not a hazard to put in the tank but probably do not do much either. You want to be really carefully about putting chemicals in . Often times they do not really behave as the label suggest. Or they will have additional side effects that can cause more damage than whatever you were fixing to start with. I suspect you can tell I am not a fan of too much chemical intervention in the tank. They have there proper place but people use them far too often as a quick fix. Look for the root cause of problems and fix it rather than use some chemical to mask the problem temporarily.

__________________
Loman

24 Gallon Saltwater Aquapod
1 Royal Gramma
1 Blue Devil
1 Bicolor Chromis Lyretail
1 Scooter Blenny
1 Chocolate Chip Star Fish
Crabs and Snails

20 Gallon Freshwater
Swords, Zebra Danio, Neon Tetras, Albino Cat Fish, Plecostomus, snails

10 Gallon QT Saltwater
10 Gallon QT Freshwater (Divided)

Jay

Hi 88keys, and Welcome to our Forums!!

Re-read what these guys have said and you will be on your way to a good experience.

Regards,
Jay

igoryek69

Jay, my question on ammonia is, I'm cycling my tank (5gal). I have 3 white clouds and a betta since 11/30/06. When ammonia spikes up and fish start to get sick or die the best thing to do is.........?

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72 Gallon African Mbuna Cichlids Tank
6 Pseudotropheus demasoni
3 Pseudotropheus elongatus

Tommy Gun

...take the fish back to the LFS.

That is the best, but you can also do a water change. This will help reduce the amount of ammonia and nitrates in your tank to help out the fish. It is also the fastest and easiest method to do so and I wouldn't worry too much about getting a bunch of 'quick fix' chemicals.I think that you have too many fish in the 5 gallon though and are going to have too many problems in the future with this set up. A 10 gallon tank would be more appropriate for this amount and size of fish. Or just a betta fish in a 5 gallon would be better. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think a lot of people would agree with me here.

I also suggest trying to start your own thread with your questions. The origonal question in this thread may be very similar to yours, but each person's tank is set up a little different and this can make the answers a bit different.

igoryek69

Thanx for your opp. Toomy Gun, how long does it usually take for ammonia to peak in the tank like mine with fish that it holds.

Thanks,
Igor.

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72 Gallon African Mbuna Cichlids Tank
6 Pseudotropheus demasoni
3 Pseudotropheus elongatus

Tommy Gun

Of course, smaller tanks would take less time to cycle theoretically speaking, but there are so many variables and circumstances that it is almost impossible to give an exact timeline on things like this.

In my opinon, and from fishy cycling once (my first tank), you will slow down the cycle a bit by having to keep removing ammonia and nitrites from the tank through water changes so that you can keep the fish alive. However, you are not going to risk taking bacteria out of the tank and in such a small body of water, I am sure it will not take long for the ammonia level to rise again so they can benifit and feed from it.

I think that many people feel that it is best to 'start out small' when initially getting into the hobby. In reality, I feel that it is best to start out medium with a 20 or 30 gallon tank beause in the smaller tanks, there is less water to dillute ammonia and other problems, so it becomes a challenge to stay on top of what is happening and/or slow it down. In larger tanks, it takes longer for ammonia and nitrites to accumulate and so the aquarist has more time to react. The good news with small tanks though is that fixing problems is usually relative timewise to how quick problems can occur so you should be able to lower ammonia levels and nitrite levels in your tank in a matter of minutes, literally.

They key for you is going to be to test the water often and do not use the fishes' behavior or appearance be your only judge of your water quality. The reason that I said I felt that you have too many fish in your tank is because your fish are producing a lot of waste in a little amount of water. While I don't completely agree with the 'inch per gallon' rule, it does have some merit in that it is based upon how quickly a one inch fish can produce enough wastes to make one gallon of water unhealthy. For example, if you had 5 inch inch fish in your tank, say neon tetras, then you could theoretically do a water change only once a week. If you have four three inch fish in five gallons, you are going to need to do water changes much more frequently.

Poor water quality also leads to a stressed fish and stressed fish are much more open to problems like Ich or other illnesses so it is going to be imperative that you keep them in the best environment possible or risk losing them all quickly.

Please understand that I am not trying to push my opinions on you, but rather tell you why I have formulated my opinion in a way that will make sense and apply to your situation. It is certainly possible that you can keep your fish for a very very long time, but from what I have learned and experienced thus far in the hobby, if the goal is to keep fish until they reach their maximum lengths, colorations, and lifespans, there are some pretty important 'rule of thumbs' to follow that will ensure a higher level of success.