saving grace

Hello there!
I have a long story that I will try to keep short. My sister just moved out of her house after 10+ years. As she was leaving the house I insisted that she take her 9 year old Fantail Goldfish. She had him in a 20-25 gallon tank with a rather large plecostamus. We transferred "Peanut Butter" in a bucket for the journey to his new home. We put him in the same tank once we got to the new house. She wasn't sure that she wanted to deal with the fish and everything else going on in her life at this time.
However, after several days watching him in this tank where the water was terribly cloudy and he looked very labored in his breathing I decided to set up my 45 gallon tank and invite him to come and live with me. We sold the pleco back to the fish store, he was attacking PB way too often.
I went to a very knowledgeable place that specializes in fish and got all things needed to set PB up in his new home. I got the live bacteria (bio-spira) and let the water set for 24 hours before acclimating PB to his new home. He seemed thrilled and excited to be in such a large space for about 2-3 days. Then he began to simply sit on the bottom of the tank in a corner and not move unless being fed. His eyes began to get cloudy and he just seemed miserable.
I feed him the flakes as well as the pellets. He is a very large fish, maybe the length of a hand not including his tail. He is very round and I would guess at least 6 inches without his tail. You need two hands to pick him up!
I give him 8 pellets plus a little tiny pinch of the flakes. My sister said that he doesn't like the pellets and feels guilty so she gives him the flakes as well.

I took the water into the store and had them test it. They told me that the ammonia was really high so I came home and did a 25% water change. I also bought a testing kit to be able to check the tank more often by myself. This morning this is the results based on my own testing...

Nitrite level: between 8-10
Ammonia level: at least a 1.5 maybe a 2 but the color was like Kermit the frog green (dangerous- right?)
The PH was 7 -7.5
The GH was an 8-10 and
The KH was a -1
I know the ammonia is bad and the fact that the KH (carbonate?) reading was a negative (where the water never was blue turning to yellow, it was just constantly yellow) ....I am not sure what to do?

The time frame on all of this is rather short so....what is wrong?

Time Frame:
New Tank set-up Saturday the 7th.
Bio-Filter, Rectangle Tank, conditioned the water....
PB released into the new tank Sunday the 8th.
Completely empty tank, just the fish.
Water checked and 25% changed on the 12th - Thursday.
Used "prime" to clean the new water and added some salt to match the
new water measurements. I added some driftwood, a live plant, two
plastics plants and I tried to feed him a pea which he had no interest in.
Re-checked and still a problem - Today the 17th....
See the test results above....

I am not sure what to do and I feel terrible that he isn't enjoying his new tank because the ammonia content is burning his gills and lungs...he doesn't look happy....
HELP!

What else do you need to know from me to help solve this problem?

Andyoybna

your tank isnt cycled yet, there isn't much you can do other than wait it out, do water changes maybe every other day, about 30%, when the water gets really cloudy and white, don't go crazy and change the water, test the water and see if it is at reasonable levels, this is your bacteria bloom, a sign to a almost completed cycle. Maybe pick up some ammo-lock to help keep ammonia down between water changes, and to me it sounds like you emptied the tank AFTER adding bio spira??? If so, get another package, by emptying the tank it got rid of the bio spira and bacteria.

Also try and keep the temp in the tank or as low as possible, and feed less, this will slow down his metabolism and create less waste( goldfish can survive in near freezing water)

Did you test nitrAtes at all? If You bought a test kit it is strange that it didn't come with a test for nitrate. Also it is possible that the fish is just very stressed, he has moved twice very recently, and both times into uncycled tanks. He could also be shocked from a few different things, either temperature if not acclimated right, or water chemistry the fish has been in the same place with the same water for I believe you said 9 years, I highly doubt that the water in the two different places has the same hardness and PH especially if you moved from well to city or viceversa.

As for the other items in your test kit, ammonia, and nitrate, keep an eye on those, goldfish are generally pretty tough fish, but if the ammonia gets up over 2PPM, or Nitrate is over 20PPM, I would do about a 30-50% water change, this will slow the cycle but you don't want the fish to die obviously, also if you don't have a nitrate kit I would reccomend getting one, and if you do but didn't use that test, or forgot to list it, when you start to see a nitrate reading, that means your tank is mostly cycled.

One more thing that may be a factor. Are you on city water or a well, with the low hardness and more nuetral PH, I would assume city, in which case you need to pick up some chlorine/chloramine remover, you can also bring a sample to your LFS to have it checked for chlorine, but on city water I would always assume chlorine is present.

What kind/type of filter are you using on the tank? what are the dimensions, is it a 40 breeder, or a 40 tall? Either way though you should have more room for adding a couple more goldfish if you wanted, maybe one of the smaller plecos as well.

And of course, WELCOME TO FTF!!!!

To get a little bit of a better understanding on what exactly happens during the cycling process, there is a good article on it, in the article section, long but definately worth the read.

saving grace

Thanks for your quick response....
I have a few new questions...

1. I was told by another source to remove the carbon from the filter? Would you also suggest this?

2. Is it safe to do a 25%-30% water change EVERY day or every OTHER day for the next week?

Correct, the tank is not cycled but I felt so bad for his labored breathing in the small tank I wanted him to have room in this new big tank...was this a bad idea?

3. On the drift wood that we just added to the tank there is some white growth beginning...this is OK? Part of the bacteria bloom?

4. No, no I did not 'empty the tank' after adding the bio spira...what I meant was that there were no 'features' to the tank, ie. driftwood, plants, rock, etc. The water was put into the tank, then I added the bio spira and I hadn't removed any water until 5 or 6 days after I put fishy in the tank.

5. Can I add bacteria WHILE fishy is IN the tank?

The temp. has remained at around 68 degrees the entire time.

6. How many pellets would you suggest that I feed him?

7. No, I found that odd as well that the kit did not include a test for NitrAtes?!

8. COuld you help me understand what 2PPM might mean? What does PPM stand for?

I always add a chlorine/chloramine remover regardless of what kind of water I am on...it is rural but I am not sure if that means well...I don't even drink my water b/c it smells like chlorine...so YES! I do remove that!

9. If I do a water change every day won't that remove the bacteria that are trying to establish?

10. I have a Emperor 280 - Bio-Wheel. The tank is 45 gallons, 3 feet long, 2 feet tall and about a foot wide. Is that a tall or a breeder tank?!

I don't want to add any more fish right now! I want PB to live out his days free to roam and swim w/o any other young "pups" in there crowding him out!!

Hope this helps! your comments were very helpful!

BJP

No reason to.

You can do 50% water changes vacuuming well if you want and it want prevent the tank from cycling or really even slow it down much. As long as you keep feeding the numbers are going to stay up so I'd stop feeding entirely for now.

No, but the overfeeeding part prior to establishing the cycle was.

It frequently accompanys excessive waste loads which the test results verify. It can even get to the point you have fluffy fuzzy stuff growing off uneaten food and waste in the gravel.

It sounds like you got a bad batch or maybe the colder temp is slowing things down. If Bio-Spira isn't cold, it isn't any good according to it's literature. Never purchase it warm, only from refrigerated sources. It's accomplished something or you wouldn't have your nitrite spike already and possibly a nitrate spike if you have that tested also. You're just supplying ammonia through fish food faster than the bacteria has multiplied at this point.

Yes but you probably don't need it and I don't like adding it when I expect to be giving the tank water changes and gravel vacuums which are needed now to get the tank down into safer ranges.

If you have a heater, increasing the temperature should speed up the development of the bacteria. Colder water explains the slow developing bacteria bed partially.

None until the ammonia is gone, then start slowly.

Parts per million. Also labelled mg/L on some kits. If your tank was one million gallons in capacity, two gallons of that would be ammonia right now.

No, it'll encourage them to develop in locations that can't be damaged in the future. Vacuum the substrate well with each change.

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BJP

In addition, I would add a little salt to help combat any ick outbreaks and make it easier to breath. About 1 tablespoon per five gallons of water, predissolved. When you give the tank a water change, readd salt for the percentage of water you remove since you'll remove the salt at the same time. Plain sodium chloride from the kitchen will work just fine. Once the nitrite level has disappeared you can stop adding the salt if desired.

Once you get the ammonia levels down and under control and can skip water changes for a few days, Fungus Eliminater by Jungle in a small bottle should clear up the cloudy eye without harming the developing bacteria bed. Follow all directions exactly. That should also include removing the carbon at that time so it doesn't remove the meds. Carbon doesn't remove bacteria or prevent it from developing.

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penna32

to help cycle try going to that trusty LFS and seeing if they'll give you some of their gravel that is in one of their used tanks

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