cloudy water

fernival brainard · 08-24-2006, 05:18 PM

I have a ten gallon(2 gouramis and a clawed frog) and a 42 gallon(4 loaches,2 sharks, small tropicals, 1 betta, 1 pleco) both of which suffer from chronic cloudy water (white in color). I have decided it is not a bacterial bloom or due to algea. The city I live in has extremly hard water, lots of calcium in the water could this be all or part of the problem? I use water softeners and have very good filteration in both tanks (at least I think its good

) but no matter what I do my white haze remains unchanged, changing the water only solves the problem for a day or two at most. the fish do not seem to mind, they are all healthy and active but it is driving me insane. PLEASE HELP!

it is both tanks that have the white hazey appearance. the ph ect. tests are good and I ruled out ph rebound as the problem. it also seems to be related to the reflection of the lights, when the lights are turned off the water looks almost crystal clear in both tanks.

ahill3780 · 08-24-2006, 05:31 PM

Welcome to the Forums!

Which tank is having the problem or is it both?

Jay · 08-25-2006, 07:32 AM

Welcome to the Forum!

Quote:

The city I live in has extremely hard water, lots of calcium in the water could this be all or part of the problem? I use water softeners and have very good filtration in both tanks

Do you use a tap water softener or add chemical to the tank?

How old are the tanks?
What is the Substrate?

What are your readings?
pH
GH
KH
Nitrates
Ammonia
Nitrites

What chemicals if any do you add to the tank?

Let's take a look at this information and go from there

Regards
Jay

fernival brainard · 08-25-2006, 05:37 PM

Do you use a tap water softener or add chemical to the tank? I use a water softening pillow in both tanks and add salt which should help to soften it as well.

How old are the tanks? 10 gal is a year...42 hex is almost 7 months
What is the Substrate? 10 gal. has natural gravel
42 hex has fine grain white sand in front, slightly larger black sand in the back one side has an undergravel filter installed (supplemental only in use when needed) this portion of the tank has small natural gravel.
What are your readings?
pH-0
GH- what's GH
KH - see above, I know one is hardness and the other is alkalinity...
Nitrates -0 (should be at 0, i use a product for that- easy balance with nitraban)
Ammonia -0
Nitrites - do not know
What chemicals if any do you add to the tank? I use a water conditioner of course and easy balance with nitraban. it is supposed to help maintain water balance and helps with ph rebound. I tried a clear water treatment that is supposed to cause very small minerals (particals to small be filtered out) bound together in a long chain polymer so that the filteration will remove them. I saw NO change with the use of this product. the lasts two days I have been adding melafix (antibacterial) to the 42, one of the bala's got an injury which led to fin rot. he is now dead...boohoo...guess I didnt' start the meds in time. but I have not seen a reduction in cloudiness with the addition of melafix so I am inclined to rule outl bacterial bloom.

ahill3780 · 08-25-2006, 06:52 PM

GH is you General Hardness and tells how hard or soft the water is, while KH is your Carbonate (carbonic? can't remember clearly) Hardness and is the measurement of Alkalinity in freshwater tanks (marine tanks use dKH, or Direct Carbon Hardness, or more typically just measure it in meq/L in order to measure the acidity).

If your source water is laden with calcium and your acidity is low then calcium will tend to precipitate in the aquarium causing a whitish haze. I have never been witness to this so I cannot say how technically accurate my description is

but it believe it should be close.

It sounds like you like to use chemicals to try and regulate your tank chemistry. This is generally not recommended as it is very tricky to do and requires extensive knowledge about how to implement supplements without throwing other parameters out of line. The best methods for those of us without PhD's in chemistry

is to use proper maintenance practices as a way of nutrient export, allowing ample time to cycle naturally, and make good decisions about source water.

I think you could see very positive results by simply using RO/DI filtered water as your water source. You can either purchase a filter unit (though they are typically pricey) or just go down to your LFS and see how much they would charge to sell you pre-made RO by the gallon. Many LFSs that I have seen have starting offering this to their customers.

Other than that it looks to me like all of your levels are within range with the exception of pH. A pH of 0 is not accurate. Do you not have a way of checking for pH? In a freshwater tank you should be targeting a nuetral range of around 7.0.

You cannot rule out the possibility of a bacterial bloom simply because one treatment did not work as it said it would.

Truth be told, most of them don't. I would be more suspect of bacteria than of calcium precipitation.

Jay · 08-26-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

GH is you General Hardness and tells how hard or soft the water is, while KH is your Carbonate (carbonic? can't remember clearly) Hardness and is the measurement of Alkalinity in freshwater tanks (marine tanks use dKH, or Direct Carbon Hardness, or more typically just measure it in meq/L in order to measure the acidity).

I'm sure what Aaron meant was

GH is a measurement of water hardness, specifically, the Calcium/Magnesium concentration. GH is usually more calcium than magnesium.

KH is the measurement of carbonates, and bicarbonates present in the water.

dKH or dGH is from the German system of measurement "degrees hardness"
Example: The dKH of my aquarium is 8 degrees.

If you multiply dKH or dGH by 17.9 you get parts per million (ppm)
8 x 17.9 = 143 ppm

Parts per Million is the same a Milligrams per Liter Mg/L (metric/US)

Everybody Cool with that

Fernival:

IMHO you are way to chemically dependent.

A softening pillow in the aquarium is an ion exchange resin that is exchanging calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions. They are adding salt to your tank. You are adding more salt to the tank from another source. This is increasing your TDS (not a good thing)

Find out what your GH is. Fish can adapt, hard water is not necessarily a problem, and like Arron says can be diluted with some alternative water source if necesssary.

Stop using balancing chemicals, stop using chemicals to hide your nitrates, knowing what they really are is an important water quality indicator. Let your tank reach a normal equilibrium.

Get a basic set of test kits $20 from aquarium pharmaceuticals. It will probably take two or three 50% water changes over a week to 10 days before you can establish an accurate base line. Basic tests are important for diagnosing what is happening in the tank and what you need to do to correct any problems. GH KH pH Nitrates Nitrites and Ammonia are very important to know, otherwise we are just guessing

You are right the cloud will not bother the fish, but you need to revisit and re establish your maintenance routine and rethink the use of chemical "stuff". I am almost positive you have a bio bloom of some kind. You are going to need to track down its source of food and starve it to death.

Regards,
Jay

fernival brainard · 08-28-2006, 05:20 PM

Trust me when I say that a chemical solution was a last resort effort,I try to stay as natural and real as possible, I even buy an overpriced all natural food for my fish when I can. I tried everything except buying distilled water (that is my next step) my Ph of 0 was a typo- I try to maintain a 7.0 although I see small fluctuations from 6.8 to 7.2. I may have a bachelors degree in biochem. before this is all over and done with. But on the bright side of things, I get to use some dormant gray matter

and more importantly NO fish are dying, (thank goodness) ! Thanks much for the advise and a million more thanks for the math formula that in itself is more than worth its weight in gold.

Glad I found this forum...you guys are truely awesome!!!

ahill3780 · 08-28-2006, 06:44 PM

Thank you for covering for me there Jay!!

It is so hard to concentrate while I have both nephews crawling over me and watching Sponge Bob at full volume!

I knew I had it backwards when I sat down at the end of the night, but I forgot to update.

fernival,

I hear you on the biochemistry degree! When I started my saltwater tank I had no idea what I was getting into. Since then I have learned the basics (and some advanced courses) of being an electrician, plumber, biologist, biochemist, janitor, dietrition, doctor, and the list goes on!

Who knew being a jack of all trades could be learned!

Cheers,
Aaron

garyl · 09-04-2006, 07:04 PM

You have gotten some real good advice here. The only thing I can think of for you to try is to feed every second day for a while and see if that helps. Could it be possible you may be just overfeeding?
Keep your lights on for a shorter period of time as well.

fernival brainard · 09-15-2006, 03:25 PM

I still have the haze in the 42 hex but my ten gallon cleared up with a mad series of water changes and the removal of an overly obese plec. the 42 on the other hand is going to be the Judas of my hobby. This is the confusing part....I have guppies that live in the 42 and one is ready the birth, so I set up a little one gallon tank for her and filled it with water from the 42. It is as clear in the one gallon as clear can possibly be. I am starting to wonder if I am seeing teeny tiny bits of sand drifting in the water and that causes the hazy appearance (I have some super fine sand that is the consistency of powdered sugar as one of the substrate media.) what do you guys that know WAY more than me think?