Kathy

Hi all,

I've been mixing softened tap water and well water for my goldies to maintain water hardness around 100-150ppm.

Big problem: my well water contains too much iron which eventually builds up, starts coating everything, and becomes toxic to the fishes gills. This is despite frequent water changes, filtering, and detoxing heavy metals.

I think I've lost many fish because of this, not knowing it was the problem, and thinking new tank syndrome or the fish I was purchasing were already ill.

I have one fish now and he was showing serious signs of toxicity a few days ago. Have done a few small water changes (about 30% each), wiped the brown residue off of everything, and cleaned out the filter boxes. My fish rallied.

Anyways, I'm switching to softened tap water gradually and I just want to know how soft is too soft?

I don't remember what the hardness of the tap water is. I need to buy more testing strips. I keep guppies and snails in it and they do fine.

Thanks,

Kathy

jd@ga

For fish I would shoot for 6.5- 7.0 if you are looking for the lower end of the scale.

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BJP

I'm kinda curious how high your iron is? I've got pretty high iron levels myself and the goldfish and koi are growing like weeds and spawning all the time with maybe 2/3's of the population born in the well water supply.

If you haven't actually tested it, you may be able to recieve free testing or at least low cost testing by a lab through one of your local drillers or water filter dealers. (The idea is they test, inform and hopefully have a chance to sell corrective equipment to treat the entire house system)

An examination of your well may yield some information also. I spent a good part of yesterday using the pump to lower the water level in a well enough to follow it down with a camera observing the insidew of the well for problems. Two of the most common I find is the seal where the bottom of the casing enters the rock has either never sealed up or has broken loose over time allowing surface water into the well causing the problems. The other is steel casing rusting and putting a brownish tint to the water or in worse cases actually rusting holes in the casing allowing surface water and mud in. Both of those problems can usually be resolved easily by having a smaller casing with a packer installed inside the orginal pipe and to a depth slightly below the depth of the original casing to seal both the casing off and create a new seal.

There are also some other signs you can look for around the house that can give clues usually in the tiolet and other bathroom fixtures. High iron can also be accompanied by iron bacteria and frequently high levels of manganese.

The knowledge you gain from investigating may improve the life of your entire family, not just the fish.

Kathy

Our well is only a year old, and we have a pretty sophisticated filter and water softening system. I know my hubby's had the water tested for human safety and it's okay there. He's pretty up on that stuff with his experience in water quality and treatment. I'm not sure if he tested for iron content, I'll have to see if I can find the testing report. Before we added the filter and softener the water was orangish, stained everything, had a funky smell, and tasted yucky.

Are iron bacteria and manganese harmful to fish?

I was drawing the well water from an outside faucet, one where it hadn't gone through the filter and softenener. I could see sand in it at times, and the water was usually cloudy and sometimes orange tinted. I always mixed it with tap water and let it set over night before water changes.

I have a 30 gal tank with a whisper and aquatech filter. I had it salted at 0.3% and the temp at around 78%. Because my source for fish is WalMart they are sick when I get them, so I salt and heat for the first few weeks until they rally.

Usually the brown sludge starts building up on the glass etc within 2-4 weeks. At first I was told, at another forum, that it was probably brown algae, but the fish always seemed to get sick or sicker at this point. I can't even count how many fish I've lost since I set this tank up about 8 months ago, at least 15-20. I always start with 2-3 goldies, never overstock, keep it clean, and water parameters are always great. I've bleached and completely broken the tank down twice, and I've cleaned it with PP twice.

When I did a water change the other day and wiped down the inside glass of the tank some of the brown stuff came off in flakes. I cleaned the tank with the fish in it, and he took a turn for the worse after that. I must have stirred up whatever was toxic in there. He was gasping and floating nose down. I thought he was going to die by morning, but in the morning he looked much better. Now when I change the water and clean I put him in a bucket of water.

I'm gradually changing the water over to soft water and bringing the salt down. The temp is around 72%. Pebbles is doing okay. But, of course, now he has ich.

My hubby said that salt can actually cause the iron in the water to rust out, that the brown sludge was probably part rust, and that a higher temp speeds up that process. Aargh!

Let me go see if I can find that report on the water.

Smiles,

Kathy

BJP

I've never seen any reports saying they are although I suspect iron bacteria could form in filtration systems and deep in the substrate as easily as the back basin of a toilet.

Why? To me it doesn't make sense to avoid using filtered and softened water for your tank especially if you're gonna come back and add salt to the tank anyway. Skip the salt addition and just use the filtered water or switch the sodium chloride for your softner to potassium chloride. It works just as well and if you have any live plants the plants can use the potassium as a food.

BJP

I'd look into having your well examined or at least talk to the driller who installed it. When we drill we usually hit multiple cracks of water. If only one had a problem it's easy to block off using two packers and sleeve. In my area if I hit reddish orange water it's usually in the upper reaches and I can always pull the casing and set it deeper to seal it off. So far I've only had to leave one customer with orangish red water because the crack at around 400 feet was the only crack with water and he claims he pumped it non stop for about a week and it finally cleared up and hasn't been a problem since. I usually only get to see examples from bored wells when we're drilling a new well to replace the bored well and hooking up or when trouble shooting someone elses work and water is coming by the end of the casing bringing iron rich mud into the well. The sand you mentioned is another sign you may be getting some surface water into the well.

How deep is it? In my area I usually stay 620 feet or less although I have a few holes deeper with one running 980 feet down. So far the deepest I've set casing to is 162'.

Kathy

I was told, at another forum, that my softened tap water was too soft for goldfish, if I remember right the GH was 75ppm. I decided to mix well and tap to increase the hardness, which gave me a GH of about 100-150ppm. So, softened and filtered tap water is okay for goldies?

The purpose of the salt was to treat parasites like ich, not to soften the water, although I realize now it probably did both.

Anyways, with 3 recent 30% water changes there isn't much salt left in the water, and I don't plan to add any.

Our well is 40 feet deep with the static water level 10 feet below the surface. We live on a creek. The iron is pretty common in well water in our area, we live in an iron rich area. The only lab report I found says no coliform bacteria.

Thanks,

Kathy

BJP

The easiest example I can think of is my mothers pond. It's been running with super soft, acidic well water full of goldfish and koi since the mid 90's. I can send you pictures if you'd like.

I'm assuming you have a normal water softener for the house that exchanges salt ions for hardness. If so you, your husband or somebody for a fee is adding big bags of salt to it every so often. The salt itself doesn't make the water soft, the ion exchange resin does. Most of the people I've talked to that are scared to use their water from softners are scared of the salt. I don't have that fear myself.

That sounds more like a bored well. Bored wells are just surface water. They're not in the rock and commonly bring iron rich mud and sand into the water supply. They can go dry during periods of drought. I spent an entire year during the last major drought working 80-90 hour weeks replacing bored wells where people waited to the last minute to get a drilled well put in. In several counties here they aren't even legal to install anymore. In addition to the drought, mud, sand and iron problems, they get contaminated very easily. Almost anything spilled, poured or sprayed on the ground can eventually be washed down into the well by rain water.

Typically the only water test required prior to occupency is the coliform test. I have seen examples of even that one faked by a builder in a hurry to close sending off a sample of bottled water from a store. That test should be repeated for your safety every so often. I would think whichever company installed the filters would have done some lab tests although it wouldn't surprise me if they only tested for whatever problems they had filtration options to sell.

Tommy Gun

There are two types of Iron here to worry about...free, or non-chelated iron, and chelated iron...and you need to understand what levels of each are in your tank and distinguish one from another. The 'free-iron' is the form that is most toxic to your fish and aquariums with a pretty minimal amount of 0.3 mg/L (ppm) being enough to worry about. This holds true as long as we are talking about a freshwater fish tank as in saltwater tanks, iron of all kinds and levels are usually to be avoided at all costs.

There are also test kits available for monitoring iron levels, both free and non-free, in an aquarium. You may want to pick one up from an LFS so that you can better understand what you are dealing with here and if you need to be concerned or not. So far, all of the information I have posted here has come directly from an iron test kit that was included in my "master test kit' produced and marketed by the Nutrafin Company.

Living in an area that is pretty rich in iron and other heavy metal deposits due to the large amount of glacial activity (Wisconsin, Kettle Morain area, if you would like to look that up), there are a lot of concerns with this problem within households like my parents in which well water is used. In short, their water turns a weird orange-ish color, from Iron bacteria, from the water sources that are not usually filtered or put through a water softener. Even still, the water they use in high quantities such as in bathtubs and/or showers, there are visible signs of the iron bacteria left as stains on metal faucets and at the top of the usual water level in the bath tubs (ring around the tub). In general, these bacteria are not going to kill anyone or anything, as you can read about here: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/dwg/febact.htm. It clearly states that iron bacteria does not cause a health issue within the segment entitled "What are the effects of Iron Bacteria". Even though this website is dedicated to the state of Wisconsin, the information would hold true anywhere in the world.

I would wonder if this is not due to another reason and I would suggest taking a look at the entire situation inside the tank rather than worry too much about the hardness or softness or even the iron content of your water...at least at first.

It is possible to have a tank up and running for 8 months and never getting past the 'new tank syndrome' or the tank being cycled. It is also possible that you are buying fish from a bad source and that could be the reason why your fish are dying. In almost ANY case, with freshwater fish, if you acclimate properly and slowly, they can 'get used to' a wide variety of water types and live long, healthy lives...even if the water type is not the 'natural' type one would find a spacific fish living in.

Before assuming too much, I would like to know what the water parameters are of the tank such as the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels since these chemcials usually have a larger impact and faster mortality rate associated with them. The truth is that goldfish are very 'messy' fish, meaning that they have a large impact on a tank's bioload, and your tank could have unhealthy levels of ammonia, nitrite, or even enough nitrate to kill them. What type of water change schedule are you on (how often and how much water do you change?)

Also, how many fish do you have in what size tank?

Has there been any long periods of time in which the tank has not held fish?

Other than for treating the Ich, do you heat the water? If so, to what temp usually? (I know you said 72 degrees, but I am wondering if this is the 'norm' or just one specific time period)

This would be true if you are using straigh well water, with a high mineral deposit in it. However, I think you also state that you are using a chemical or product that rids the tank of heavy metals, and so I would be suspect of either the product you are using, or if you do not have a problem with diatoms. I would not be too quick to rule out either. If you are using softened water, this should not happen.

Kathy

Okay, soft water it is. I was never worried about softener salt being in the tap water. My hubby explained how the softener works. Yes, a normal softener for the house, my hubby adds the salt.

As far as I know the well was drilled through gravel and stone, the report says rotary. There is 40 feet of 6" diameter steel casing. No screen in the well.

My hubby doesn't remember getting the well tested for minerals, iron, etc, but I think he's going to now.

Thanks again!

Kathy