Cycle crashed-Still having trouble

Cichlids4Ever · 11-22-2006, 07:02 AM

I am totally frustrated here.
I don't even remember if I posted this already because the web site was down.
If this is a duplicate post, I apologize.
Here's what is happening.
I used the fishless cycle method to get my 30 gallon back up and running.
I had it cycled in 9 days, but I couldn't get to town for fish and the cycle crashed.
I introduced an ammonia source back in the tank, and after 3 days, the ammonia was gone so I added more to keep things going till I could get fish.
I am ready to go and get fish now, but the nitrites and nitrates are out of hand.
nitrites are 5ppm and nitrates are off the chart at 100, MAYBE 80.
I did 2 massive water changes and no change.
Do I keep up the ammonia?
What is my next move to get fish in here?
Thanks!

TetraKeeper · 11-22-2006, 07:53 AM

I would do a couple more massive water changes, adding no more ammonia, until those numbers come down. And then add just three drops of ammonia to make sure the bacteria colonies are still working. Test for one more week to be safe. It takes patience. I'm fish-less cycling a 65-gallon myself with a nitrite spike. It takes even longer in fall and winter.

Cichlids4Ever · 11-22-2006, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TetraKeeper

I would do a couple more massive water changes, adding no more ammonia, until those numbers come down. And then add just three drops of ammonia to make sure the bacteria colonies are still working. Test for one more week to be safe. It takes patience. I'm fish-less cycling a 65-gallon myself with a nitrite spike. It takes even longer in fall and winter.

OK,
I just edited this post with an update.
I did an 85% water change and took some readings.
nitrite=0
nitrate=10
ammonia=0
PH=7.2

I am going to town now and getting a pleco and maybe a pair of mollies?
I think I am cycled and I need to get some fish in there???

If I ever cycle another tank I will get about 20 feeder goldfish for about 2 bucks, cycle the tank with them, then give them to my son for his oscar :-)

Jay · 11-22-2006, 11:11 AM

To use the fishless cycling method simply add 4-5 drops of pure ammonia per 10 gallons of water to a fishless tank. Do this once a day until nitrite becomes measurable. At that point cut back to 2-3 drops per 10 gallons of water, per day. When nitrite and ammonia are both at zero, and nitrate is measurable, the tank is cycled. A substantial water change of 25% or more is advised, then your tank is ready for a full complement of fish. The temperature for the process should be around 80 F.

Jay

Cichlids4Ever · 11-22-2006, 01:51 PM

Thanks Jay...
That's what I did originally and it worked fine, but because I got busy with holiday stuff, I never put fish in it and it crashed.
Then I had all those strange spikes in everything.
It had me confused. It looks real good right now.
The numbers look real good.
Thanks Jay, and have a good Thanksgiving!

Tommy Gun · 11-22-2006, 09:37 PM

Just to help support Jay and for future situations like this one, the key to a fishless cycle is to keep a good, even source of ammonia in a tank until there are fish in it. By putting in the ammonia source, you are doing one thing and one thing only...replacing the fish who would normally create wastes (pee and poop to be exact) which are broken down into ammonia. To help support that, think about a time you may have visited a farm and got that oh so pleasant noseful of ammonia smell...that is from the animal's wastes. Fish do the same thing and so by adding pure ammonia, you are just recreating fish pee, to put it bluntly.

That said, the fishless cycle is honestly pretty easy and if you do not keep your newly created bacteria colony fed, they are not going to last. If you cannot stay with the tank to dose ammonia, you can put some fish food into the tank as it will decay and result in ammonia. If going away for a long time, then put some shrimp from your local grocery store (not alive shrimp, the kind you would eat yourself) into a nylon or a filter bag and weigh it down so it is always submerged in the water (otherwise you may have issues with mold and airborne bacteria). The nylon or filter bag keep it in a simple to remove package and your tank will still be cycled when you are gone.

One of the problems with using fish to cycle a tank is that it becomes hard to keep a steady level of ammonia in the tank when they die from being in unhealthy water. For example, you put 20 feeder goldfish in a tank and by the next morning, 5 are dead and you now only have 15 fish in the tank. So, you do a water change, which reduces the amount of wastes in the tank and two days later, 7 fish are dead when the ammonia levels get high again. Now, you are down to 8 fish and the ammonia levels are again lower. This is why it is risky and in some people's opinion unethical to use fish in this manner. To be real honest Cichlids4Ever, you are not going to want to feed any of these stressed and sick fish to an Oscar anyways, so you are basically back to square one even if you only lost two dollars.

I think that your tank may be cycled right now. A good way to test that is to get yourself a SMALL amount of Mollies (or other VERY hardy fish like feeder guppies or rosy red minnows, but IMO, mollies are the best) and put them in the tank. DO NOT go overboard here since if you continually stock in smaller numbers, the tank will adjust and be able to keep up with the waste production. This is when patience can really come in handy and will pay off big time in the form of less stress on yourself and less stress on your wallet.

Once your tank gets going, you are going to be amazed at how easy this will be and as long as you do things without a bunch of chemicals and 'quick fixes', the tank is going to be almost completely self sufficient between water changes. Then the hardest thing you are going to have to do is make sure that you are not over feeding and make sure that you have the ability to pry yourself away from looking at the tank!

Cichlids4Ever · 11-22-2006, 09:56 PM

Thanks Tommy...
I think you are right.....but I ran into yet more problems...

I went to town and bought some Mollies...just one pair...
They looked fine in the store, but when I got them home, they were loaded with Ich. I looked at them so carefully in the store and saw no spots...

OK...It's worse than that...
I added some salt and raised the temp, but now they look as if they are blind, but I know they aren't. I put my hand near the tank and they move back. They can see. BUT!
They are going to the top of the tank and crashing into the glass, then sort of diving rapidly down and smashing into the gravel, plants and everything else.

They look very weird.
Any clues?

Tommy Gun · 11-22-2006, 10:11 PM

Ok, I know this sounds unlikely, but I once bought too many feeder fish for my saltwater fish and put them all into one tank while I was busy moving other fish from another tank and then....ok, too complicated. The end result was a bunch of fish in that feeder fish tank being really disoriented and swimming into the glass and eventually dieing. 1st step, check your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. If any are high, do a water change.

Second idea...you have chlorine in the water still or somehow since I know that you are using well water. You may also have something else in the water from the well itself (minerals or chemicals from a farm spraying pesticides or something like that)...not sure how you would test for any of that though. Maybe someone else would know. (This could also be some of your problem with cycling a tank in the first place)

Third, did you acclimate them to your tank? You should always try to do like is suggested with a saltwater fish...float them in the bag to equalize the temp of both the tank water and the water in the bag...then open the bag and allow some of the tank water in there to mix with the other water...then wait...then do that again...then wait...then do it one more time...then wait...then put the fish into the tank using a net and not just dump the water from the LFS into your tank.

I would back off on the heat and the salt (salt is ok for now, just dont put more in) and put the water temp to 75ish degrees. Then turn off the lights on the tank and in the room except for a smaller light so that you can view the fish but are not stressing them out.

I think that these fish may not make it from your description...but your LFS should have guarenteed them for a couple days at least. I would call them and ask them what they keep their water temp at and what their Ph and other water parameters are. Tell that what your problems are and see if they can point out a local issue that everyone in the area has. If they say they have the answer to your problems in a little bottle for $19.99, get the information, write it down, research it and let us know what it is. Tell them that you should not be having this many problems and they should be able to give you some insight into your local water supplies and what not. If they cant, try calling another, smaller place and ask the same thing.

I havent seem much of Ich in my tanks, to be honest, but I would be skeptical if you told me they got ich in the couple of hours or less between the store and your house. They may have been placed in the bag with some sort of antibacterial solution or a stress coat chemical or pill. Dont get too excited by the white spots unless you go back and see the same on the fish there. You have all the rights in the world to pick which fish you want, and I am always choosy when I buy mine, even to the point of having the employee chase fish around for 20 minutes to get the ONE, the only one, I want. I dont care because wasting their 20 minutes will save me tons of time and money not to mention stress.

Keep you chin up. In a couple more weeks, if you are not doing better, I will fly out there myself and help ya! This is starting to wear on me as much as it would if the tank was in my own living room!

Cichlids4Ever · 11-22-2006, 10:15 PM

Thanks Tommy.
I am so glad you responded quickly...
I will do a check on water quality and see what goes there.

Please look back tomorrow if you can and check what I have posted.

I do have a fish warranty, but it doesn't pay for me to drive that distance for a few fish.
I just won't shop there any longer.

Peace, and happy Thanksgiving!

Tommy Gun · 11-23-2006, 01:02 AM

I will be on probrably in the morning tomarrow and then again most of the day on friday since I dont have to work and so I will check on you from time to time.

Did your fish die or are thay hanging in there?