Can I save my Platy??

Steph

Hi,
I'm new on this forum; just found you all this morning as I'm searching deparately for help to save my last platy. The following is long, but I want to give as much info as possible so I can get some serious help. Thanks for sticking with me.

Here's the background:
10 gallon tank, freshwater
Started in end of June 2006 -- so roughly 4 1/2 months.
"Over the top" filter... kind that produces a small waterfall into the tank.
Several plastic plants, 3 live plants, one small and one large ceramic decoration.
Mollies & Platies. As of last week had 1 female adult blue mickey mouse platy (mom), and 11 babies between 4 and 6 weeks - orange and blue platies. As of Sunday night, just the female adult platy is alive.... and not doing well.
(had 3 other adults until about 3 1/2 weeks ago when my 5-yr old decided he and his friend needed to play with them ... anyway that's where all the babies came from. I know that 1 adult couldn't have all those babies by herself!)

All was going fine with one mom & her kids, until 2 weeks ago when I noticed some green algae growing on the glass & rocks.
Added some anti-algae chemical to kill it (was that wrong?). On Friday last week (Nov 3rd) I noticed the adult platy looking sluggish and most of the fish staying close to the bottom, so I tested the water; all levels looked good except Nitrates were way high -- between 70 and 80. Hadn't had any issues with Nitrates for a long time, so was suprised by that reading.

The algae looked dead and I knew the Nitrates were dangerous so I wiped the algae off the walls and cleaned the tank -- with a normal siphon hose cleaner -- just like I always do. Trying to get the tank super clean, I eliminated too much water; ended up replacing probably 60-70%.

As soon as I filled the tank with clean, treated, water everyone seemed fine. I tested the water and all levels were in the appropriate ranges; nitrates were between 10 and 20, so not perfect but way better!
A few hours later I noticed everyone looking super stressed; hugging the bottom, not moving much, darting around. Retested water, with still good results.

Saturday night I put 4 babies our of their misery; Sunday morning another 5; Sunday night the final 2 babies were gone. Now all that is left is the adult blue mm platy. She's lonely and still looking extremely stressed.

As of this morning my readings were:
Nitrate: 20-25
Nitrite: 0-.5
Hardness: 75
Alkalinity: 150
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0-.25

Just before posting this, I checked on my one fish and she is breathing heavily, side fins are moving super fast and she's swimming backwards, looking scared.
Not sure what is wrong with her or if she can recover.

Incidentally, I noticed that my plants seem to be deteriorating -- not sure if this is causing the problem or maybe just another symptom of the problem.

So, guess my questions are:
1) Any ideas what went wrong? Is it changing too much water or is there something more serious that I've done wrong?
2) can I save my fish or should I just stop her suffering? Losing all the babies has been super hard, but I don't want to see this one suffer a long painful demise either.
3) my nitrates are on the rise, but I hate to make anything worse at this point. Should I clean again or what? Hate to add any more chemicals unless someone tells me specifically to do that.
4) are the plants helping or hurting? should i remove dying/dead leaves or let them filter through naturally?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Tommy Gun

I am not the plant expert, but I do know that deteriating plant life is usually a sign of poor water quality (or not enough lighting) and to me it sounds as if water quality could be to blame here.

First, it is VERY possible that one platty can have 11 babies and it is also possible for a female to have several 'batches' of fry from one mating session with a male (up to 7 times, I believe) since they can store sperm well.

It does appear that your tank is cycled from your water parameters, but maybe having a small mini-cycle. The only way to rid your tank of nitrates is through water changes, so you did ok with your last cleaning, however IME, 60 to 70% water changes CAN be risky because you could change the water conditions enough to shock a fish (e.g. Ph swings dramatically). If your nitrates are on the rise again, I would do another water change but stick to a 25% range for now. With constant monitoring, you could easily do this size water change every other day, if not more often without severe detriment to your fish as long as you are sure to condition the water with dechlorinator.

Algea growth is not ALWAYS a sign of something bad and so I dont think that the algea it spacifically to blame for the sickness of your fish. However, if you are killing it with a chemical, it will deteriorate your water quality as it breaks down and basically rots, for a lack of a better term, within your tank. This could also explain the high nitrates.

For me, I would stay away from adding chemicals to my tanks other than for dechlorination reasons. There are many ways to control algea without chemicals and I would assume that these chemicals are not too good for other plants anyways (someone else would have to say if this is true or not exactly though). From my understanding, one benifit of having plants in a tank is that they 'suck' enough nutrients from the water that algea has a hard time thriving and so I would think that a big algea bloom would be a sign of your plants having problems. Having only read about planted tanks, I do not know for certain, but I would think that removing dead or dying plant matter would help reduce the bioload on your tank and probrably keep your nitrates lower.

If this was my tank, I would first look at a water change and cleaning out any dead or dying plant/algea material that I could. I would also rethink my feeding schedules/amounts as overfeeding can dramatically impact nitrate levels as well as add phosphates to your tank which will help algea thrive. Without any other signs of distress in your fish, I would think that this is a water quality issue, stemming from either the chemicals you have added, or dead/dying detrius decay which is adding to the nitrate levels. Even though nitrates are not toxic at low levels, they can result in the death of fish in high amounts and mid-range nitrate levels can stress your fish, leading to a plethora of other problems down the road.

IMO, you are doing a good job with trying to understand the problem and testing water will be the key for you here. Of course, the goal is to not have to do water changes every day, and once you can figure out what is affecting the water, you will be able to slow down and do small, weekly water changes at a max.

Loman

Steph,
I agree with the actions Tommy suggests but I am surprised he did not mention the ammonia at .25 and the nitrites at .5. I think that you may have triggered a mini cycle with the big water change and chemical to kill algae right before. Nitrates at 70 are clearly too high but IMO preferable to ammonia and nitrites at these levels. I suspect the algea bloom is the result of the high nitrates. I would do several 10% to 25% water changes with vacuming the gravel and watch these levels closely to see if they come down. I wonder if the fish will make it through the spike but I would certainly give it a try. You do not need to pour a bunch of chemicals into your tank so I would not do that. Dechlorination is usually important (although that may make a bigger ammonia problem) and other than that I would be very leery of chemicals in my main tank. Check these again after a couple days and maybe another small water change and let us know if things are improving. Do not get too discouraged if you loose this fish as well.

Tommy Gun

Thanks Loman for adding to my ideas. I think I pointed out that I felt a mini-cycle was happening, but my aging memory ensured that I didnt come back to hit that subject again. However, I am NOT reposting to just point this out (hope you dont mind Loman)

I think that the good thing here is that Platties in general are tough and can definetly handle a mini-cycle if they are relatively healthy and not already suffering from other problems.

So, Loman does bring up the good point about certain Dechlor treatments and for the life of me, I cannot remember what the other 'property' that some dechlor chemicals also take care of that add ammonia to a tank. I know that Jay knows for sure, but I will look back at some posts I think I read about this in and find out exactly what that is for ya.

Jay

Where are our manners??

Hi Steph, Welcome to our forum.!!!


IMO a combination of bad stuff went on.

The algaecide is the main suspect. Algecide kills plants, fish, and algae.

The second suspect is the mini cycle diagnosis and the pH of 7.8. Ammonia toxicity increases with elevated pH

Third possible suspect..Algaecides can cause a rapid depletion of O2 in the water.

Fourth Suspect... A Nitrate test of 80 ppm is high, but it also is an indicator that your tank also contained a very elevated amount of dissolved organic stuff. While fish can adjust to this, a sudden reduction caused by a big water change, can kill the fish because it has not had time to adjust its system, the fish drowns or suffocates. This is a difficult process for beginners to understand and I hope I am being clear.

Regards,
Jay

Steph

Thanks to all of you for your help.
Unfortunately, the lonely lady did not make it through the night. I will not be giving up though!

As a newbie, I definitely see the mistakes I've made. Must say, that I have been totally surprised at how attached I've gotten to these fish. It was so fun and exciting to have the unexpected fry... and now I feel like a total loser for having killed them all.... even if it was not intentional. Definitely an emotional rollercoaster.

I am trashing the algae control chemical; it said for tanks with fish & plants but I totally don't believe that now. In retrospect, I think this is where most of my big problems started -- I was trying to control a little green patch of algae on the side of the tank, and ended up killing the plants which has thrown me into a Nitrate spike, and in the process suffocated all my fish.

Tommy Gun, you said "Algea growth is not ALWAYS a sign of something bad". I'm thinking I agree at this point... because I think I jumped too far ahead of myself trying to kill a little algea. Also based on your comments, I suspect my algae growth was a result of overfeeding. Wonder too if I'm leaving the light on too much (12-14 hrs a day).
How much algae is OK? For future reference: at what point do I know algae is a proble? and How do I control it w/o chemicals?

Jay, just a note on the PH... the 7.8 is what it comes out of the tap. I tried during initial setup to bring it down, but never could get it to budge. The guys at the lfs said it was ok, that's what they have in their tanks. If I could bring it to neutral, I would -- I've used several of the pH down products, with no success; is there something else I can try??

When getting "clean" water, I get straight from the tap, add drops to called Chlor-Out which says it removes chlorine and ages water fast; usually let it sit overnight too. We live in an area where there are no additives to the water -- most of the folks I know here with fw tanks simply add straight from the tap.
Prior to this recent issue, my fish seemed to be thriving, and my other levels seemed to be fine, despite the elevated pH.

Here are the actions I've taken so far, based on everyone's input.
Cleaned the tank last night, about 15% of the water.
Replaced with treated water (to remove chlorine & age water).
Cleaned all the dead/decaying plant life out of the tank.
Plan to do another small cleaning cycle this afternoon as well.
Obviously testing for nitrate levels constantly.
Will get my levels stable and get plants back to healthy status before adding additional life to my tank.

One more question... can anyone recommend a testing kit that is accurate yet fairly simple? Right now I'm using two sets of test strips, one for ammonia level and another that does nitrite, nitrate, hardness, pH, and alkalinity. I also have a kit w/ drops for pH but haven't used it as frequently because it always shows exactly what the strip shows.
Anyway, since the strips are almost gone, and I'll have to be buying more of something, so thought I'd ask your opinions on maybe a better/more accurate method.

Thanks!
Stephanie

Castor1011

your testing numbers are great, even the nitrates are in an acceptable range. Being that you have mentioned treating your water and you obviously know that you shouldnt do a full scale water change, i can see that you are not completely new at this, but still im gonna say it to be on the safe side, no offense. filters need to be changed at least once a month. it is safe to use an algae chemical treatment in the water as long as you follow the directions on the back exactly and it is specifically for fishtanks. everything you are doing seems good to me, however, obviously you are still having problems. In this case since we have possibly eliminated tank concerns..lets look at fishy concerns. This could be a medical issue called Dropsy (common behavioral symtoms include lethargic nature and quick death among the population), or another medical symptom like it, an internal condition. (baby fish are very very vulnerable to illness if it strikes, which explains why they went quicker than your adult) If I were you I'd go to an internet site and look up your fishes behavioral symptoms to diagnose an illness. Then, asap get some medicine. Follow the instructions exactly. I'd recommend a Mendel product because it is what worked the most for me and it includes a handy fish illness chart. With all of the treatment you are giving your fish not only are they probably shocked by water changes, chemical changes, etc but they may not be used to so much human involvement in their lives. After you treat your fish with their medicine, I would defer from adding anything else to their tank save for just enough food for them, and testing the water. give them a chance to zen out.
remember its not your fault...any fish can get an illness EVEN if the water is perfect.
Good luck!

Tommy Gun

Sorry to go against you here a bit castor1011, but IMO and experience, there should be little to no need for a well set up and maintained tank to have chemicals added to it. Steph, I cannot really say what an 'ok' amount of algea is but no one can really expect an 'algea free' tank at all times. Jay will know more about what to look for as far as more acceptable algea versus others, but there are MANY things you can do to reduce algea. Plants, from my understanding are a good way to slow algea growth because it becomes a competition in the tank for the nutrients needed by both and plants tend to win against algea.

The key for anyone who wants to keep a healthy tank is to reduce the amount of dead and decaying matter in the water. Over feeding is a big cause of water problems and I know that it is easy to do when trying to feed fry since it seems as if they do not get to eat a lot. The first thing I try to keep in mind is that you cannot be 'begged' into feeding your fish. When you walk by the tank, your fish are likely to come to the front of the tank or near the surface. This is because they come to recognize you as a food source and many fish are 'opportunistic eaters', meaning that if there is food available, they will eat it. Unfortunately, once the food hits the bottom of the tank, many fish will not eat it and this adds to the bioload of your tank. The bioload is the direct connection between fish, wasted food, dead and decaying matter and your ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels. While it cannot be said about all fish foods, I try to ignore the 'feeding directions' as much as I can and feed once daily at the same amounts regardless of if my fish look hungry or not. Of course, finding the right amount is key here and you can determine this better by feeding small amounts at a time until you notice some hitting the bottom of your tank.

It should also be pointed out that it IS ok to have a higher Ph rating in your water and MANY people desire higher ph in order to keep fish like cichlids. The REAL TRICK is to concentrate more on keeping the ALL water parameters at levels which will be safe for any Ph. I am willing to bet that once you stop over feeding your tank and keep taking out the dead and decaying plant matter from your tank, you will see very noticable changes in your water tests.

As far as water test kits, I really prefer the liquid test kits for two reasons. #1, they can usually be used more times than test strips and so even though they are a bit more costly, I feel they are the better 'bargain. #2, test strips are easily spoiled by improper storage and you can be getting some bad results which encourage you to do things to your tank that are not needed. I also feel that they are pretty easy to follow and I just sit with the booklet that is provided with the test kit on my lap and read as I go. I do this every time just to avoid confusion. Having multiple tanks including a SW tank, I bought a Master Test Kit which has lasted me quite a while already considering I test three tanks almost every other day.

So, Steph, first let me say that I am sorry to hear about your losses, but on the other hand I am excited for you since it sounds as if you have the 'bug' that most all of us on this forum have quite badly. Is your tank now 'empty' of fish? I think this would be important in knowing how you should approach things from this point forward and so I will wait for your answer to keep going with this already too long post of mine.

Loman

Steph,

I am more or less in line with Tommy's thinking. I am probably not as focused on the liquid kits as he is, but the logic is rock solid. I like the strips for a quick easy test and use them for that but will go to liquid when I really want a good sense of things. If you want only one I would opt for the liquid. You probably want the high pH ones too. I have the same pH issue as you do in that my tap water is 7.8 to 8.0 pH with high alkalinity. It is virtually impossible to bring my water down to neutral and IMO not a good thing to try. Most people end up chasing the pH around and it is constantly moving. In general I think a fish can adapt to most reasonable pH levels once acclimated and that a constant level is more important than a specific number near 7.0.

I do not agree with castor1011 that the numbers look good. You do not want an measurable ammonia or nitrites in the tank. IMO Any number above zero deserves and needs attention. The nitrates look good but I suspect they will come up once the ammonia and nitrites are converted. That leads me toward the algae question.I think too much algae is in the eye of the beholder a bit. Also you will experience different responses at different points. I think you are still cycling this tank and as such once the nitrates raise I would expect a strong algae bloom. It will get better once the nitrates start down a bit and you have some anaerobic zones to convert nitrate to nitrogen.

I am sorry that the fish did not make it through but not too surprised based on the description from before. Hang in there though. The water conditions will improve shortly and should be able to start socking the tank. I would not be too worried about other fish diseases at this point. With ammonia and nitrites the fish are under significant stress and therefore much more susceptible to other diseases. Clean up the water parameters first and most of the other problems go away.

Jay

I agree with Loman and Tommy, Castor I think you need to revisit some of your ideas and theories as they are a little misleading.

Large water changes, for instance, are fine and safe to do, if you have not let your Nitrates and other TDS go through the roof. In that case partials are necessary to gradually reduce them.

.

IMO This is bad advice, algae is a plant. Algaecides kill plants and fish or will harm fish, even it the label says otherwise.

Steph, I did not intend to imply that a pH of 7.8 was bad, it is not, I wanted to point out that during a cycle or mini cycle ammonia is more toxic at an elevated pH, and this could have been a contributor to your problems.

Jay