Culumnaris (sp)

fernival brainard

UGH!! Why oh why are fish diseases so hard to diagnose??

I think my scats have columnaris but I'm not sure

About 7 days ago, the larger of the two Scats had a cloudy eye and white stringy muccossy looking stuff all over him, as it was 2 am and this looked just like the stuff that killed my bala sharks in less than 3 days, I did an emergency treatment with what I had on hand. You know, the good old blue tinted fungus cure stuff, I didn't want to use it but was afraid to not use it at the same time, scats don't handly the harsh treatments too well. I also added salt to the tank and kept the lights off from Sunday the 24th until Friday the 29th.

The next day (the 23rd) I went to my lfs and picked up some Maracyn came home did a water change (no salt added), put the charcoal back in the filters and 24 hours for the blue meds to filter out. next I began the maracyn treatment. Saturday the 31st was day 5 of treatment, which should be the final day . The larger scat looks better, his eyes have cleared up and his body is looking better and the red that had begun to appear at the base of his pectoral fins is fading.

The smaller of the 2, on the other hand, is still popeyed and cloudy in one of his eyes and he is not eating. His right eye cleared up but I'm not sure if he can see out of it or not and his body looks better but not good. And I don't think his vision will come back in the left eye when and if it clears up. It looks pretty bad and is scared chihuahua bugged out with some white stuff covering it. As of yet he has no red showing on any part of his body and both fish seem to be breathing normal.

Water parms are good, no amm or trItes, trAtes are at 20 and the temp is 79 degf., the ph is 7.4

There are 5 other fish in the tank with these guys and they are not affected at all (or don't appear to be anyway) so I'm wondering if I missed diagnosed or if this is something that just needs to run it course or if I should try a different medication.

*sigh* Any feed back is appreciated, let me know if you want/need more info.

Thanks FTF, love ya,
Fern

ps
its a 120 with a grown oscar, a huge goldfish, a black ghost, common plec, a green terror and the 2 scats.

Despite the tempermental fish in the tank, no one is getting picked on.
thanks guys!!

fernival brainard

Well thanks for asking. Yes, the fish are doing better and as of june 3rd have started to pick at food again. The smaller scat still has one funky eye but his appetite is coming back and he is exploring the tank again. don't know what I would do without this forum. thanks for the help.
Fern

nyrmel

sorry (pm on its way) I never saw this one as a new post and my memory for names isnt that great. does the first fish seem to have an issue with his vision? and is the second starting to look better? what makes you think he wont be able to use the one eye? is he bumping into things? I admit I hadnt come across anything about swollen white fish eyes. And am not sure what a scat is exactly. umm maybe if he isnt interested as much in the food is there a different food he might like to tempt him with. I know with my son I try to give him is fav things when he is off his feed after being sick and with one of our cats she gets turkey baby food when she gets off because it is the only thing she doesnt turn her nose up at. I know that seems weird that i am comparing your fish to both my son and my grandmothers cranky cat but I hope you get what I am trying to say. I know I am still fairly new but I have read mentions of how our fish need a varied diet to stay healthy and fight disease maybe if his diet is lacking soething it could maybe be part of why just the 2 same breed fish got sick. I really dont know but those are thoughts that came to mind. let me know how they are doing when you get a chance you said the 3rd and sice it is almost the 5th??... Well good luck and good night

Tommy Gun

For what it's worth Fern, I apologize as well Fern...I generally try to read as many of these disease threads as possible but work has been tying me up way too much lately

Anyways, hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong but I am somehow under the impression that Scats are truly a brackish to marine animal and not exactly a freshwater fish...especially as they reach maturity. True, I know of at least a few people who have kept these same fish in a FW tank for a long time, but one of the reasons this may be important (if I am, in fact, right) is that your fish may be stressed by living in the "wrong" environment and hence, are more susceptible to problems....and I think this idea may be supported rather heavily by your description of no other fish being affected by the problem.

Well, the fish manufacturers did this intentionally so that there would be a good reason to create fishtankforums.com!!! Just kidding.

To be honest, other than the most common ailments, I think it is also hard to accurately diagnose ailments in humans without going to college for half a lifetime. Obviously fish do present additional challenges because there aren't many visual ques that would suggest that they are getting sick where as we - and perhaps any other non-aquatic pets - might notice a lot of sneezing, coughing, scratching, etc...etc...etc... In fact, I think it is pretty safe to say that the majority of "diagnosis" that are suggested on this forum aren't much more than an educated guess; and really only a semi-educated guess. However, I do think that - if approached wisely - we do have a good shot at choosing the appropriate treatment if we observe closely and often; even if a true diagnosis can't be made. In any case though, keep your chin up and don't let problems like this get the best of you and remember that the best treatment for any illness/disease/ailment is always going to be prevention.

Jay

LOL They also manufactured Young Scats as brackish water fish. As they mature, they gradually acclimate themselves to become Salt water fish. It is my understanding that these fish are caught in brackish to salt water and bagged in freshwater for shipment and sale. A brackish fish or saltwater fish is not designed to be in fresh water. The fishes osmoregulation system cannot tolerate it. This stress eventually causes a weakened unhealthy fish prone to disease.

Just my thoughts on the subject

Jay

fernival brainard

You're close to right, some species are caught, at a larger size in brack waters, a few are bred in captivity but not many. When born in the wild, most are born in fresh water but slowly migrate out toward more salty waters-they usually settled at the mouth of the river where than can catch all the nasty stuff that flows out to sea for eating-Scatophagus- latin for eater of crap (nasty stuff). They can and sometimes do go true marine but I think this is food related. They eat more than any fish I have ever seen, they are dirty like oscars but a bit worse, IMO.

Some people keep them in fresh water (as I am ) and I am not happy about it, to say the least. I have been trying to sell them for several months (see post on Houstonfishbox.com-fishmarket) but as they are nearly a foot long and brackish water by nature and require a massive amount of space, finding them a new home is proving to be difficult. I have tried many different LFS'es ( a store can have them free!) in my area and none can/will take them or have assured my that they will stay in FW if they do take them (because they can live in fw and be okey)....UGH!!!

I am also trying to get rid of the others in the tank which are FW fish, with the fw fish gone I can convert the tank and scats over to brack. Unfortunately, nobody wants an Oscar that is over 15 inches long, he is massive and also requires alot of space and alot of tank maintanence. and I don't have any more space to set another 100 plus gallon tank, I don't think I could maintain another tank anyway. I have more than my handsful with the 6 tanks I already have.

I wonder if the problem didn't stem from water type but at the same time this is the exact same thing that killed my Bala sharks several months back. It was fast moving and totally decimated the sharks. No other fish became ill with the Bala sharks either.

*I posted about it (the bala's) but the hackers hit us the same day and it was one of the posts forever lost, as it was long and they were dead, I didn't repost*

I blamed the Bala illness on myself. I had connected the python to the garden hose 2 days prior for a massive water change and thought I caused a bacterial or fungal infection. The Bala's were dead within 72 hours of visual symptoms.

Point being....That makes me unsure when it comes to salinity or lack there -of. Nyrmel suggested nutrient defishency (haha-get it) and so far most every place I have looked for food requirements says they eat anything even refuse and does not touch on specific nutritional requirements. So they get cichlid sticks, krill, bloodworms, flakes and I see them eat poop

At any rate, they are continuing to improve, the small one almost has 2 eyes again, one just has a tiny bit of haze left in it and he is eating and swimming again. The larger one still has a bit of reddish at the base of his fins but his appetite seems to be completely restored, he's a voracious eater and makes big splashes at the surface when he "captures" his food. His eyes are crystal clear and he is very active.

Thanks for replying folks, it is greatly appreciated!! I'll keep you updated on their progress and cross your fingers that I find somebody in that tank a new home.

Thanks again!
Fern

Tommy Gun

True, but probably with only limited success.

According to what I feel is true "expert" advice, these fish aren't really in dire need of salt per say but instead, need a more specific Kh, along with some of the other trace elements that are present in true brackish and/or marine environments. In fact, I believe that is it relatively safe (read: accurate) to say that most, if not all brackish fish are euryhaline; meaning they can adapt to freshwater, saltwater and everything in between almost at will. However, in nature, they can/will do this multiple times a day which means that they are always receiving the conditions they require to remain healthy and alive....which is nearly impossible to recreate in an aquarium and so we, as hobbyists, would settle for the middle ground and stick to brackish water (which is actually a weak marine environment, not a freshwater environment with some sodium chloride added).

Like Jay and probably most all of us realize, the answers you are searching for here will probably change quite a bit depending on who you ask....however, if you filter out the riff-raff, the answer is actually the same - your scats are missing something that is not allowing them to remain in the condition you would like. As I mentioned before, I think the strongest evidence of this is the fact that you are having problems with your scats while at the same time, your true freshwater fish are strong enough to remain healthy and/or avoid the problem...which, if you are right about that diagnosis, is particularly interesting because columnaris is a bacterial infection that is very contagious.

Just in case anyone couldn't "hear" my sarcasm - which I know happens all of the time - I was trying to joke around by making a comparison to how it sometimes seems a manufacturer will over complicate things in order to ensure further sales (e.g. my current car was made in such a way that I had to buy a 125 dollar tool just to get to the oil filter).

fernival brainard

most Scats that are kept in FW their entire lives, never reach full size and have somewhat shortened life spans. From what I understand epsom salt will give them the trace minerals they need but I'm not sure what epsom salt would do to my oscar, plec, black ghost and green terror (oh yeah, and the over grown gold fish too.) any feed back on the epsom salt thing would be great!!

As far as the culomnaris (sp) goes....I was surprised no one else got it either and that is what makes me wonder if I guessed right. I've decided that Ich and dropsy are the two ailments that I can correctly diagnose, so like you said in the first post, TG, it is all just a guess based on what we see in our fish.

Thanks for the feedback guys and I'm sorry if I sounded hateful in a couple of posts concerning this subject. But in my defense, I'm a woman and you know how we can be a bit on the hyper-sensitive side at times.

I'll be looking for feedback on the epsom salt thing, let me know your thoughts and thanks again!!

Regards,
Fern

ps
TG *your prof. says your an author...what type of stuff do you write?? Just curious.

Judge

Ok, this may be completely of the fishtank wall and certainly NOT my area but, what about Bass pro Shops???surely there is one in Houston. I have a family member(several that fish semi-pro) who donated the largest catfish and he now proudly swims at the Pro Bass in OK City. Just a thought..

Tommy Gun

Obviously we all have different experiences so I am sure that your observance here is accurate to some extent, however, it does seem like the stores and hobbyists in my area are pretty diligent when it comes to brackish water fish. For example, I know of at least two "fish only" type pets stores in my area and both of them have maybe a dozen tanks that are clearly labeled as brackish fish...and at least one other store keeps a few scats and monos in a saltwater tank. Whatever the case may be though, even if everyone else was jumping off bridges without a parachute, you wouldn't necessarily want to do the same. Again, this is one of those situations in which I am reminded of that one Sesame Street song which went something like "one of these things isn't like the other".

Regarding the Epsom salt thing....I am not really sure if I would go over to the local drug store and buy the first box labeled as this sort of salt - although that is only to say that I haven't investigated enough to know that they are ok or not. It is my understanding that brackish water is comprised of many different types of salt, as well as trace elements that form a relatively lengthy list of items (the very same "salt mix" as is used in marine aquariums) which may be as equally beneficial to your scats as they are detrimental to your true freshwater fish. In reality, I think the thing to keep in mind here is that brackish water is found in those areas where "saltwater" from the ocean is mixing with freshwater from inland areas and so all of those elements can be found, only in more diluted concentrations. My main point here is pretty much to say that adding sodium chloride and/or Epsom salt alone does not really constitute brackish or saltwater...which doesn't really help you all that much because you have a mix of fish that put you in a pickle where doing one thing might hurt the other, and vice versa.

I do however, think that it is possible, and somewhat 'normal' for only a certain number or type of fish to get sick in an aquarium and hence, don't think that you can safely rule out the columnaris diagnosis (or potential diagnosis anyways) simply because your other fish are unaffected.