Eb0la11

Hello,

I have a 50 galan tank with 4 plecos, 2 silver dollars, 2 julli cory cat fish and I had 2 severums and a firemouth cichlid.

I change 25% of the water every two weeks and I add Aqua plus to dechlorinate. No aging.

PH level is right around 7.0

Ammonia level is 0

Not sure about nitrate or nitrite levels but I did a 25% water change just yesterday.

I feed them Tetramin Tropical fish flaes, hikari cichlid excel twice daily and once a week I will feed frozen bloodworms in replacement of the cichlid excel.

I have had the severums and the firmouth cichlid all die over the last three days after I added an oscar to the tank that I believe contaminated the whole tank.

Before this Oscar my tank was running perfectly fine for over 8 months with this setup. I have since removed the oscar after my tank got sick.

I first noticed the oscar being sick with ich, so I used methyl blue (not sure on spelling) to rid him of that since it had worked in the past for one of my other fish.

As soon as this happened, the oscar got healthy and the rest of my fish got very sick. I returned the oscar cause he was slightly aggressive. That is beside the point.

My fish began acting very out of character. Here are the symptoms I noticed:

-Disinterest in food
-Rubbing on logs
-Clouded eyes
-Going to the surface ALOT and at times gasping there (Ive since added a bubbling rock)
-My plecos running to the top and looking like they are scooping a bubble of air then returning to the wall, they dont sit on the surface like they used to. (The bubbling rock didnt help this)
-a dusting over their bodies
- fins are deteriorating

What I had done to treat this is do a 25% water changed, followed by a 10% water change and another 25% water change over 4-5 days. The last two days I have been treating them with Kanaplex by Seachem. My first severum had already passed away after the first two water changes BEFORE the Kanaplex was added to the tank. Since then, two more fish died, 24 hours after treatment and 48 hours after treatment. Ive added the dose again today, but to me it seems like its not treating what is ailing my fish.

I dont know what to do.

I feel as though my tank is plagued and I cant fix it! What would you guys suggest?

Ive started another tank that I am putting through a nitrite cycle and am contemplating putting the silver dollars and cat fish in their while I add salt to the other tank for the plecos and to kill some of the bacteria.

What can be suggested cause I have no idea. Im thinking ive misdiagnosed the fish sickness as fin rot or Costia, though the only treatment Im aware of for costia is changing water and Ive done that, while Kanaplex is suppose to treat the fin rot and seems to be failing.

Is it a good idea to put sick fish in a newly established tank? Will it be too big a shock for them? Would this save the Plecos (keeping in mind Id add salt to the other tank) though running the risk of hurting the silver dollars and cat fish more?

Any information would be appreciated. Please respond as quickly as possible!

penna32

to me this sounds normal .. as plecos usually live in a lake mostly by themselves .. the lake most of the time dries up .. and plecos can breath air just like us .. so they are known to kind of crawl their way into new lakes .. pretty cool eh ? =]

as for the rest .. you can speed up the cycle by adding some of the established tanks gravel into the cycling tank .. this will speed up the nitrites/nitrates cycle .. i wouldnt put the fish in the smaller tank because then theres a chance both tanks will be infected .. i would keep treating with whatever and keep us posted .. a lot of poeple on this forum know a lot and can help you out ..

as for your fish rubbing up against rock .. treat for ick .. i like to raise the temp to about 85 and treat with jungle's ri**** quick formula .. but there are other various ways to treat it ..
raising the temperature will speed up the life cycle of the ick, and the medicine will kill it fastly ..

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Eb0la11

That is cool about the plecos, do many of them do this anymore? The Plecos are my favorite.

Anyways, I did treat for ich already and it seemed like that was what got them sicker. Am I safe to mix kamaplex and jungle fin rot?

I was only thinking of putting some of my fish in the other tank Im setting up. This tank can get contaminated a bit too, I dont really care, as long as it helps me treat the fish in the other tank more.

I have read that salt is the best cure and want to add some to my tank to help fix things but I know for sure my cori cat fish cant handle it and I am not so sure my silver dollars would be able too.

Would it be a good idea to put the 4 plecos in the newly established tank after the nitrite cycle is complete and add a bit of salt to it? Would this likely cure them?

Im not so sure my plecos are that sick, they along with the cat fish seem to be the healthiest. It was my cichlids that died first and now my silver dollars are real sick but the plecos and cats are not as bad.

Would this idea work? Could the new tank handle the introduction of the new fish after the cycle is complete along with the addition of salt? I would probably introduce the plecos 1 at a time every other day or so, starting with my biggest and coolest one.

Also, are plecos a hardy fish that can survive in a newly established tank like this?

There are a lot of questions in this post, I really would love it if someone could address all of them if possible. Thanks for the initial reply Penna32. Im still a bit puzzled what to do.

penna32

first .. i would do a big 60% water change in your "sick" tank .. to get rid of all the medicines you have used .. then i would add salt to your tank .. im never really sure how much you are supposed to add .. check around the forum i know its been mentioned so many times, i can just never remember
as for the plecos .. they are hardy fish .. but ICK seems to do the worst damage on them .. if its in your best interest to keep them .. i would say move them into the smaller tank .. try and get AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE "sick" water in there , as this will help with the disease .. i would put some salt in there too .. dont add them too quick or else the biological colony won't be big enough to handle all the ammonia/nitrites .. plecos do exit a large amount of waste, so make sure your filter is strong enough to handle it .. iw ould try and start


i wouldnt try mixing two medicines .. that might just make the fish sicker .. just do the big water change .. crank the temp to about 85 .. and add the salt .. while doing the water change it would be better to add it there .. as it would be pre dissolved, and i know sometimes my fish try and eat the salt ?

best of luck

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Eb0la11

Another question:

When I do a temperature raise, is it a gradual thing like 1 degree every day for a week? Or is it right to 85ish?

Right now Im at about 76-77 F and my fish apparently can only live in these ranges:

Silver Dollars- 75-84
Common Plecos - 66-79
Corii Cat Fish - 72-79

So, is it safe to go out of those ranges for a day or two? Im confused with this type of treatment and wouldnt want to "boil" my fish. It seems to me I cant go much higher.

penna32

try and raise it 2-3 degrees a day ..

you have tropical fish .. although they like their temps in the 70s-80 ranges .. you have ick

fish can live in the temp of 85 .. but you want to speed up the natural life cycle of your ICK .. which will kill it naturally .. while adding the salt which will help
dont worry .. you wont boil your fish =]

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Eb0la11

Hmmm, thanks!

I think Ill definately try raising my tanks water temperature. Im still a little skeptical about the addition of salt. I know for a fact it will hurt my cat fish and very likely my silver dollars as well if its not something more than a dip. I'll have to research this a bit more. I'll probably be back with more updates after I treat my fish some more tonight. Hopefully they are still alive

Tommy Gun

You may actually have a case of Velvet here...maybe on top of Ich, or besides Ich...but you also have a few other issues going on here as well...

All I can say about this is that I hope you are supplementing your plecos diet...they need to eat A LOT of veggie matter (algae is only the start) to gain the nutrients another fish might gain by being omnivores. Too add to that, not all plecos are solely algae eaters...in fact, if they are starving, they may start sucking on the sides of your other fish to get nutrition from their slime coat...silver dollars make great targets for that sort of thing.

Based upon reading some of your other posts, I am getting the impression that you may be discounting nitrite levels a bit too much for your own good. Nitrites are just as 'bad' as ammonia is to your fish, hence you really need to be watching all three (ammonia, nitrItes, and nitrAtes) closely and consistently.

While you may be fine with this feeding schedule, without being able to monitor nitrates, you might be having a water quality issue due to over feeding...

Before you call me out on this, keep in mind that there are TWO types of overfeeding. The first, and most commonly addressed version is when you are feeding more food than your fish can eat, so there is a lot of uneaten, decaying food in the tank adding to water quality issues...BUT, you can also overfeed your fish in a manner which even though no food is wasted, your fish are eating too much and hence, making more wastes than they otherwise might. You have a lot of 'messy' fish in this tank...meaning they naturally make a lot of wastes anyways, so overfeeding them could just be exacerbating the 'messy' problem that it sounds as if you are not addressing right now due to comments like this:

...I can tell you that I have a FW tank which holds comparatively less fish than yours does and I cannot get away without doing a water change of 25% every week. I know this because I monitor nitrates and do not let them raise above a level of 40 ppm, which is actually hard to do sometimes since I dont always feed my fish during the week, my wife does.

Did you treat this fish with Meth Blue in the 55 gallon tank with your other fish or did you quarantine the Oscar and then treat it? These meds, if not used with caution, can be as harmful as Ich or whatever illness you are treating for to your fish...and probably my first guess at why you lost your severums and firemouth...but that is only a guess at this point.

Penna is right...plecos often will dart to the surface of the water to grab some air so that they can better control themselves while swimming. Converesly, it is probably more of a worry that your fish used to sit on the surface since these fish are typically bottom dwellers and generally lean towards being nocturnal (although, that is a generality, not a rule), hiding much of the day light hours.

This is a sure sign of having a lack of Oxygen in the water...and it is important to know that the 'bubbling rock' or airstone does not add oxygen directly into the water but rather creates aggitation of the surface water, which helps promote gas exchange (Co2 out, O2 in). You can also help with low O2 issues by using a filter or power head to further aggitate the water's surface. It really does help...I can show you some good evidence of this if you are interested.

These are ALL signs of velvet...especially the big red flag of dust on their bodies. Luckily, velvet can be treated similarly to Ich and I will vouch for Penna on the idea of using salt and heat to help your fish here. In fact, I would stand behind that advice all day long...here is why:

The truth is that you do not know that for a fact...and the meth blue is equally, if not more, irritating to your catfish than salt. It is not really a matter of catfish only being sensative...but more along the lines of any scaleless fish. That is why it is suggested to use a HALF DOSE of salt when scaleless fish like your plecos and cories are in the tank. The normal dose might be in the range of 1 tablespoon of salt per every 5 gallons of actual water in your tank (remember, a 50 gallon tank doesnt hold 50 gallons of water after you have substrate, decor, equipment, and fish displacing some of that potential volume). When scaleless fish are involved, then you might want to add 1 tablespoon of salt per every 10 gallons.

When adding salt...and to be sure, you want to be using sodium chloride (table salt) not marine salts and you can use iodionized salt over the short term future without any issues...dissolve it first in some water from your tank and then add it slowly so that your fish can have some time to adjust

You also want to raise the water temp slowly

Your fish are obviously stressed out from this illness, possibly Velvet, so whatever you do, you want to do it slowly so that you dont add more stress, weakening them further.

You also do not want to continually add salt, just add it after a water change, which you should do frequently (maybe even twice a week) during this time so you can keep an even higher water quality than normal; again, as to not add more stress to the mix.

Do not add salt when you replace water due to evaporation...the salt is left behind

That is not true...they can survive for a time in higher water temps...these ranges are only generalities and an average of what their true habitat might be. Obviously the water may be warmer or cooler depending on weather patterns, seasons (if any), and the like. They can make it at 85 degrees just fine.

You should care about this because Ich and Velvet are both parasites that can plague a tank for a long time, even when there are no visual signs. With these sorts of problems, quarantine tanks and hospital tanks are only a good thing when you first bring your fish home...once a display tank is experiencing these issues, you are not solving anything by moving the fish other than making more work for yourself.

That said, many of your other questions are mute, so no need to dwell on them...that is, if you dont mind.

Here is the big problem with this hobby as I see it:

First, be sure you understand that none of us are really educated enough to give you absolute advice or a diagnosis that is sure to work for you, or for everyone in every instance...however we can get close and I really feel that Velvet is what you are faced with here.

Second, there are so many misnomers and myths running rampant that it is hard to make concrete statements such as the few we both have made without finding someone who wont agree with everything. There is often times not enough time to go through every single aspect of some of the statements I have made here either, so please try to 'read between the lines' at least a little bit and ask for clarification if you need to.

There are others, of course, but I wont get into them all since I am finding it hard to do so without sounding like a real jerk or as if I am some sort of 'know-it-all'. Too add to that, please dont 'hear' anything I have said today as me talking down on you or as if I feel you are not as smart as me or anyone else for that matter, since this is the least of my intentions here.

In any case, you should be able to 'save' some or all of your fish here, but if not, dont give up and use this as a good lesson to base your future endeavors on. Ich and Velvet are difficult and time consuming issues to address, but not impossible. The trick here is to understand that prevention is really the best 'cure'.

We also have a few good articles on some of the subjects brought up in this thread. If you want to check them out, you can find the link to the articles section at the top of this page, underneath the forum's header (on the left hand side, under the word "fish") or by clicking HERE.