Goldfish Ich?

Robbw · 04-05-2007, 03:01 PM

OK here we go. One of my new Black Moors (had it 5 days) has some small white spots on its tail area. I noticed too that it has a tear in one of its tail fins. Anyway, I'm wondering if this is the beginning of an ICH outbreak. Fish are acting normally and eating normally.

Tank is a 29 gallon tank. Water parameters are 70 degrees, 6.8 ph. 120 hardness, 80 kh, 0 amonia, 0 nitrite, 20 nitrate . I feed my fish a combo of Tetramin goldfish flakes and Dainichi Godfish pellets. I keep my light on about 6 hours per day. Tank has been up for about 2 months now. Note that I typically do a 5 gallon water change every 5-6 days. I use well water and have added Cycle a couple of times. Yesterday, I added Stresscoat because of the tail tear and because the other one seems to be missing some scales on his side.

My other fish are 2 small red cap orandas and 1 small orange veiltail.

I'm wondering if there is something I can do in the tank to "nip this in the bud", whether I need to do something more drastic, or whether I should just watch and see what happens. Thanks in advance.

Robbw · 04-05-2007, 05:46 PM

Did a fair bit of reading about Ick and Ick treatments today. I have decided to do a salt treatment of 3 tsp per gallon for a week or two. I put in about 25 tsp pre-dissolved today. Tomorrow morning and evening I'll repeat. Not sure if I'll turn the heater up much because the tank is at about 70 degrees and these are goldfish.

penna32 · 04-05-2007, 06:02 PM

well hope you get through this

Tommy Gun · 04-05-2007, 06:50 PM

I know that you have done research on Ich here, but it is important to know that salt is going to treat Ich when it is in a free-swimming stage, not when it is a white spot on your fish. In fact, you cannot treat the white spot form of ich with any medicine....at least any that will leave your fish alive as well. It is very well protected in its white spot stage and so that is going to be key information for you. Why key info? Well.....

The water temp also plays a huge huge role in Ich and how you need to approach it. At a lower temp, which you have right now, the lifecycle of ich is slowed quite a bit. For example, at 74 degrees (F), Ich can remain in its white spot form for in the range of two weeks or more; at 80 to 85 degrees (F), it would most likely fall off your fish in as little as three days. So, this is when that key information about treating Ich in its free swimming form really becomes 'key'. The goal is to get those white spots off your fish asap so you can treat it. Once it falls off the fish, it falls to the substrate or decor and reproduces, those 'baby' ich will be free swimming shortly after birth.

The thing here is that I am not sure how Goldfish would handle the increased temperatures because the usual advice that i would give, and have researched pretty thoroughly, is to slowly raise it to 86 degrees. I think someone would have to help you more about the coldwater fish, but I suspect they can handle it for a little while. I would go really easy on the salt though if you raise the temp. Usually you can get away with three teaspoons per every 5 gallons. I cant remember the exact math, but three teaspoons per 5 gallons is enough and has worked for a lot of people. Fortunetly, I havent had to deal with ich for a really long time.

However, if rasing the temp of your tank is not a good idea, then keep with what you are doing right now. In theory, the ich should not be able to progress much more than it is now because the salt would stop the free swimming protozoa from attaching to your fish by killing it. However, there may be some "white-spots-in-progress" on the goldfish right now and have simply not grown the protective shell, which you see as a white dot, yet. Then, and most importantly, continue to treat for Ich at least two weeks after the last white spot falls off. As I said, that is when it reproduces and can multiply by hundreds from each white spot so if you stop too early, then you are very likely to have a relapse.

And of course, this is all assuming that you really have Ich in the first place. While I am not a big fan of starting a treatment of any sort on a 'just in case' basis, it is good that you are trying to start "nipping this in the butt" early.

Robbw · 04-05-2007, 06:58 PM

Yeah..the temperature issue is something I'm aware of but don't want to stress the goldfish with 85 degree water, even though it will speed up the process.

I'm pretty sure this is Ick. I've seen it before. I've read that 3 tsp per gallon is the level you want to get the tank to over 36 hours. I'm assuming about 24 gallons after subtracting for gravel and decorations.

Tommy Gun · 04-05-2007, 08:32 PM

I didn't mean to go against you on the amount of salt you should be or could be dosing....there are a lot of opinions out there about this subject and I have often argued for more salt myself, until I ran into some more information and sort of changed my mind about it all. I dug deeper into some scientific type resources (as opposed to the more opinionated aquaria websites/forums) and learned that you can get away with much less salt than the 3 teaspoons, which is one tablespoon, per gallon. BJP can support me on this because he had a lot to do with me changing my mind. The number I most often read was that a saline solution of 0.05% was adequate for Ich treatments. I cannot recall exactly what that translated into as far as table or teaspoons exactly, but it was even less than the often suggested 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. BJP had the appropriate type of test kit to work that number out...I will ask him to take a look at this post because he not only knows those numbers, but he has had blackmoors and goldfish where I have not.

My only concern here is the 'stress factor' that we are all pretty familiar with...I hope. While I understand that your Ich issue here is small by your own accounts, but you also have newly puchased fish which is stress factor #1, possible fin/tail rot issues, stress factor #2, and I while I know you predissolved the salt (good job on that BTW, most people skip that part), that is a lot of salt for any fish to acclimate to, even over a whole day's time IMHO. So, like I said, I am not trying to go against you here, but rather give you some words from the devil's advocate point of view since, again IMHO, knowing what not to do goes a long way towards knowing what you should do. Plus, I have read quite a few posts about losses of these fish recently and figured a more gentle approach might help to avoid reading a post like that from you. I appologize if I sounded like I was coming off as a know-it-all or implying you were doing anything wrong.

Robbw · 04-05-2007, 09:07 PM

Nope. Took your post as helpful and from a person with more experience than me so I very much appreciate it.

I agree 100% on the stress factor. Trying to deal with a couple of issues on basically healthy fish before it becomes a major problem. In that case, less may be more. So maybe I keep my salt level at 1 tsp per gallon? ???

I've also been chastised because I've overloaded the tank. My bad because I'm impatient! So I'm going to get that 55 going this weekend...but that will add more stress. I'm doing my best with a good filter upgrade and diligent water changes/gravel vacuum. Do I want to wait until this issue passes before switching to the bigger tank?

This is a very demanding hobby!! I started out just wanting a small tank to entertain my cats who could watch the fish swimming around. Down the slippery slope!!

Tommy Gun · 04-05-2007, 09:32 PM

Honestly, there is nothing you can do which you wouldnt find someone in the world to chastize you about. There are just too many opinions out there, and people in this hobby get pretty pasionate about them...including myself.

The problem with listening to a lot of people say "I am getting a bigger tank when they outgrow this one" is that a lot of times, most people dont do that. I think Reefbabe's signature says it best...advice is easier to take if it doesnt go against our plans. If you are going to move them to a larger tank, that is the best. I would treat for this Ich issue entirely in the tank the fish are in now though. It is contagious so moving them to a 55 gallon would only relocate the problem and not solve it. You need time to cycle it anyways so try a fishless cycle with this one and you can see how much better it will be.

One teaspoon per gallon is better than three, yea. You dont want to add any more salt though, and refrain from adding it until you do a water change. Salt doesnt get 'used up' that quickly and it will not evaporate with the water, so if you keep adding it, you are just raising the salinity. With a water change, you take out salt so you can add it back when you put new, unsalted water in the tank.

Robbw · 04-06-2007, 09:10 AM

I decided to hold at 1 tsp per gallon. I'll be interested in what BJP has to say on the issue since these are Moors. Tail on that Moor does look a little worse this morning, even though the fish are all acting normally. Anyone do house calls?!!

On the tank issue, my logistical problem is that the 55 is going where the 29 is now. I'll post in the setup section what I had in mind but I'm reconsidering.

Robbw · 04-07-2007, 11:19 AM

Just a short update. My moor seems to be doing well. I upped the temp to 75 (which is about as high as I want to go with goldfish). Everyone is acting normally.

I also got some oyster shell at the local pet store. Unfortunately, it was in a powdered form, so I put it in a media bag and put it in the filter, behind the other media. Seems that my ph is already up to 7. Kh hasn't increased too much (still around 80) but I haven't put baking soda in yet. (don't want to do too much too fast).