EtherealGirl

In addition to the distressing behavior of my platy (separate thread: where I'm still looking for input), one of my fancy guppies is "extruding" white poo, which several times comes out in a spiral. I have read in several places that white feces is a sign of intestinal parasites. However, I've also read that it isn't always the case. Pretty much everybody else in the tank has dark-pinkish poo (I swear: if I had known that starting & becoming addicted to aquariums would require me to discuss the color of fish poo, I think I would have stopped and turned around outside the fish store).

I have spent hours today observing everyone in the tank (trying to determine what Skye's problem is, and discovering other issues in the process), and I don't believe the guppy looks emaciated. It's possible he looks a little paler overall than before. And his behavior is a little odd (and annoying) in that he's constantly "posturing" (dorsal & caudal fins fanned to the max, doing the "I'm so big & powerful quiver", and chasing Skye (grrrr, get away from that poor sick guy!) and even nipping at him (in his pelvic fin area, which is another story I'll post about tomorrow if Skye isn't better). I assumed the posturing is in reaction to the addition of the new fish, which seems to have thrown everyone except the new fish into a real tailspin (groan).

So:

• How do I determine if it is parasites?
• What do I do to treat it? (I do not,yet, have a quarantine/hospital tank)
• If it isn't parasites, is it something I should treat, or is he just expressing his individuality ?

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louistheloach

O yes, I am right there with you, when I got my little bristlenose pleco and noticed a funny extrusion, I too spent more time than I would ever have anticipated, examining and talking about fish poo...

It is possible that it is parasites. Most fish live with them in their guts. Sometimes, for some fish when something becomes stressful, it allows the parasites to build to a level that becomes problematic. One thing to try is to feed more often (smaller amounts) to keep their gut happily active which can sometimes help control the buildup of parasites by moving things through more quickly.

When I recently noticed that I had a juvenile rainbow that appeared to have parasites, (both by the extrusion and he got fairly gant) I used a product called gel tek. The instructions say to withold food for a couple of days and then put the drops in the tank, and the fish will be attracted to it and eat the med (also has pheromones to attract the fish). I found this to be unproductive. I tried to put some in his flakes - without success. I finally fed him shrimp for the 5 day period and put the meds in with the brine shrimp. This he ate readily. I do not believe it would be bad to treat your whole tank with this. I do not recommend the kind of medicine that treats the water (minimally gets into intestines). The only downside that I can see to five days of shrimp is my little guy got spoiled and I am having a hard time getting him to take flakes.

hope this helps.

ltl

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125 gallon planted freshwater community
Rainbows, loaches, Corys, Rasboras, Featherfin Synodontis, SAE's, Ottos, Bristlenose

EtherealGirl

So I don't need to quarantine him?

I was thinking about putting Bond (the guppy with white poo) in a breeding tank to separate him from the rest, more because he's doing aggressive damage (I believe) to Skye and others. I put him in the net to separate him from the rest, and while it is not a full recovery, as soon as Bond was in "lock down," Skye began swimming around and showing interest in food again (though not much in the way of appetite).

This seemed to confirm one of my theories, which was that Skye's distressing condition was due to Bond attacking him from below, nipping at Skye's pelvic fins, and thus causing physical injury (Skye usn't using his pelvic fins at all when he swims, and the little I can see of them, they appear a bit raggedy), as well as emotional stress (fear of coming out into the tank or to feed when there's a fish with a "license to kill" always coming after him).

So treating the whole tank would be safe, even if Bond doesn't have parasites (and the others don't either)?

BTW, thank you, ltl, for replying. I was feeling a bit like everyone had gone on vacation right when I needed both help and moral support. Skye is doing better, though I don't feel sure that he's out of the woods, since he's still behaving strangely and not eating much (at least he's coming to the feeding ring, now that Bond is in captivity).

Any other opinions, advice or experience would be very welcome at this time. Hope to hear more on this subject.

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Jay

I think you need to step back and consider some things. I am in no way blowing off your concern or feelings.

Consider the incredibly stressful journey your little Otto took. Wild caught in the amazon, to broker, to US broker, to US wholesaler, to Petsmart or wherever. Dumped into a tank with less than ideal conditions, sold to you, acclimated and dumped into yet another tank.

Farm raised common tropical fish whether in Thailand or in the US are raised by the gazillion, shipped by the gazillion, distributed by the Hundreds...all along the way loss is anticipated and expected except at the hobbyist consumer level who do not see the lfs clean out the dead before the customers arrive.

I know that is cold, but it is reality. The percentages are not with you that all of your purchases will make it. The replacement of casualties policy, by fish stores after so many days, is built into that reality.

There are lots of great breeders out there that specialize in specimine fish...but then you are talking dollars most newcomers are not willing to invest. Ask what some of our Saltwater guys invest in fish, corals, and inverts...it will give your pause.

There is no way to accurately diagnose internal parasites without an autopsy. You can make an educated guess based on observation, you can randomly treat, buy expensive product. The best one out there is $19.00. I would feed blanched peas and a little garlic to eliminate gastro problems and see if there is some improvement. $19 to treat a $2 fish is a marketers dream.

Hears the Zen...its all about the environment. Doctors have known for ever, that in emerging countries the better the infrastructure...food, sanitation, and safety, the less they are needed. I know that if I buy a little school of this or that, one may not make it, but it was not because of the quality of the environment.



Jay

louistheloach

I am not sure what you mean by a breeding tank, if you have a separate tank with heater, filter etc no matter the size you can use it. If your only choice is to treat the whole tank, I don't think it will hurt. It has been recommended to me in the past. I also don't think it will hurt to wait a while and watch the monster guppy, especially if he is not looking thin.

As Jay points out, a visual diagnosis is only a best guess. Aside from his aggression, I don't think there is anything to panic about just yet.

One other thing to consider. If you really feel the guppy is causing undo stress in the tank and it is affecting the others, you may want to return him to the store. He may do better in a larger tank with more fish to pick on, thus one individual fish will receive less negative attention and be less stressed out. And he may not be as aggressive in a larger tank with more inhabitants (when going from big fish in a little pond to little fish in a big pond, the dynamics of his behavior will probably change).

ltl

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125 gallon planted freshwater community
Rainbows, loaches, Corys, Rasboras, Featherfin Synodontis, SAE's, Ottos, Bristlenose

EtherealGirl

Thanks for the input, ltl. Very helpful (especially about returning the Bully if it doesn't improve. I had been thinking about that already, so your words were reassuring).

Thank you for, Jay, for bringing some perspective. I would never think you were blowing off my feelings, and I completely agree with your zen koan: "They are as happy as their home." Knowing that, I can't expect much in the way of super healthy, happy, hardy fish, given that their world is just 10g and their environs are all plastic, fabric & prefab . (Maybe someday they'll be "moving on up")

However, I think maybe there's a little confusion here (which is understandable given the length of my posts and the fact that additional info on the situation is out there on a different thread: http://www.fishtankforums.com/5-fres...-swimming.html (Why Is Our Platy Swimming In Place?)

My concerns are not about the oto; I'm worried about my platy and male guppy. If it was my brand new oto who was acting strangely, I would absolutely understand (after all, I've lost 2 fish already as a result of transitioning. I know from experience that it "comes with the territory" as long as I'm dealing with PetSmart, etc). I understand the oto has been, as you say, through quite an ordeal and was just introduced on Tuesday. However, the oto is as happy as... well, an oto in a diatiom diner . No problems, no worries (knock wood).

The fish with the distressing health / behavior issue is my platy (Skye) who was one of my two original fish. He's been with me for nearly 4 months, made it thru my fish-in cycle, has looked happy, healthy and handsome every day. Until Wednesday (the morning after the oto & 2nd glofish were introduced). He started "treading water" and stopped eating, and basically kept that up for 3 days. (He does seem to be improving at this point, I hope. {For a description of his initial situation, please refer to thread above; for his current status, read on}.

In the course of observing Skye for hours on Thursday to try to determine if there were injuries or any other visible clues to his ailment, I discovered that one of my male guppies (Bond) was depositing white, spiral poo. I did some reading and have found two totally contradictory views: White poo always = intestinal parasites; and White poo doesn't necessarily = parasites. He does look a little thinner, maybe, than he did, but that's hard to say for sure. He might be a bit paler, but also hard to say for certain. He is, however, absolutely not listless. He actually had taken to chasing the other fish, especially Skye (who was cowering in the corner, not doing so well to begin with) and aggressively nipping at Skye's pelvic fins.

While I observed all this, I also noticed that Skye was not using his pelvic (or anal) fins at all when he did swim (which was not much, since he was just kind of floating most of the time). And the few times he swam right in front of my magnifying glass and did extend his fins, I could see they looked a bit ragged, not like the full, beautiful fan that his pal-platy has.

So my theory is:

• The introduction of the oto and 2nd glofish on Tuesday put stress on the residents (the oto and glo, of course, are doing fine). Perhaps there are too many fish in this little tank, especially for the residents who have been here the longest (the platys and the guppies).
• This stress caused the guppies to go nuts showing off their big, bad, maleness, (displaying tail and dorsal fin, quivering with macho showmanship, etc) and thus sent Bond into a macho dominance thing for which nipping at Skye's fins was the natural expression (Skye had pretty much been top-dog before the intro of these last 2 fish, so Bond had to bump it up a bit).
• The injured pelvic fins are what is causing Skye to mostly swim in place (since he probably hurts and has less control without those two important fins).

To test my theory, I put Bond in a “time-out pen” yesterday (net breeding-unit hanging in the tank). Almost as soon as Bond was removed, Skye started swimming around a bit more and now (24 hours + later) seems more interested in food. I’d say he’s back to normal but I don’t want to jinx it.



We’re now testing a different scenario: Bond’s been allowed back in the tank (under strict supervision) and we’ve put the 2 glofish in the “time-out pen”. I’m testing to see if the group dynamics can return to their old harmony if the 2 hyper glofish are removed. If this works, I’ll take the glofish back and get a single oto to keep Super Otto company.



So with all this theorizing (which I know may be totally off base, but I have spent a LOT of time watching them carefully, so maybe I'm right), what I need to know is this:

• I get the sense from various replies that it may or may not be parasites. I also get the sense from you all that I do not need to quarantine the guppy. Am I right so far?
  
  
• I think I also hear you saying that taking a Wait-and-See approach is OK too. Watch the guppy a bit more and see if there are further signs of parasities; don't rush to treat. Am I right?
  
  
• It would be ok to treat the guppy as if it is parasites to be on the safe side, if I so choose, either because of observation or precaution?
  
  
• I couldn’t find Gel-Tek at lfs. Can I treat him with Jungle Internal Parasite Guard (ingredients: sodium chloride, metronidazole, acriflavine)?
  
  
• If the above meds are ok, can I treat the whole tank (since he’s not in quarantine)?
  
  
• How do I “blanch peas” ?? And how do I give them garlic (I have crushed garlic in oil, but I’m guessing that would be a NO. Go get fresh garlic and mash some up? … How do I know how much to give them without OD’ing on garlic?!

I know this is wildly long and that I may not get any replies as a result. I just wanted to clarify the confusion, try to explain the two issues (platy & guppy), and provide some updates, since lots has changed since I opened the two threads. If anyone is brave or determined enough to make it to the end, I applaud you, appreciate your interest and hope to hear your answers or views.

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gregpape23

I found that really, really funny for some reason, I mean I was laughing my brains out. lol
As far as garlic goes check this out, it's a good start...http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?c=3578+4245

And +1 to what Jay said. And also, he did go through the cycle, even though he survived it though, it probably still had at least a little affect on him. Think of it like this, even though someone who has been smoking their whole life has stopped smoking doesn't mean they are back to normal.

As far as if it is or isn't parasites, like you said, I would just wait a little. You might just be looking for something to be wrong. Kind of like this... if you could examine your stride for an hour, eventually you would be able to find somehting that doesnt seem quite right. Maybe your knee is bent in a little too much or something. And then you get all freaked out because you have some condition with a super long name when really you've been like that your whole life. (if that makes any sense lol)



-Greg

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uʍop ǝpısdn ʇ,usı sıɥʇ

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Bovard 1994

Jay

Just a few things since I know you are a nocturnal creature...

Sodium Chloride NaCl is table salt
Metronidazole is the internal parasite med of choice
I have no idea what the other ingredient is...I could look it up but not tonight.

Fun with peas...

A frozen green pea "is" blanched...that's the way commercial frozen veggies are prepared.

Just get it warm, like in hot water from the tap...skin it and use the pulp.

Use a clove of fresh garlic, cut a sliver, and crush the pulp and garlic together with a spoon or mortar and pestle.

I have no idea how to get the fish to eat it . I guess you should make enough for everyone.

Hmmm garlic and peas...probably a nice Riesling.

Jay

EtherealGirl

Greg: I am so glad I gave you such a good chuckle!! I was just thinking about how a little garlic can pack a big punch for me... I pictured the fish needing a PeptoBismal chaser! Thanks for the link; I may try their Garlic Extreme {recommended by louistheloach}.

Jay: I think I'll wait (rather than rush to treat), but I'm guessing That FishPlace will have a good source of metronidazole (without additives), should I decide to treat. I will try the garlic & peas appetizer, with a brine shrimp entree. Just not sure how to light the teeny tiny candles on their linen-clad tables.

Hopefully the fish will like peas better than my daughter does! Any bets as to whether Super Otto will eat the garlic peas when they all sit on the bottom after nobody touched them? (There's a wonderful kids' song by Sandra Boynton called "Oh, lonely peas.. There's no one who loves you at all.")

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