Need help all fish died in new tank

dairyguy · 05-23-2008, 05:50 PM

I am new to hobby, I have a 90 gal. fowlr tank.
Cycled 6 weeks, then added snails, and cleaner shrimp.
2 weeks later added racoon butterfly, royal gramma, and kole tang.
Drip acclimated all fish before adding them.
Butterfly was scratching when I added him to the tank.
2 weeks no problem, then ich appears on butterfly.
I added marine max according to directions.
I also started adding garlic drops to food.
I am feeding frozen food, mysis, brine, and carnivore pack
Next week gramma dies, no external symptoms.
Ich did not improve after 2 weeks started adding ich attack.
Next week tang dies, some ich spots, but skin velvety looking.
Ich spots on butterfly improve from 15 spots to 3.
3 days later butterfly dies, some ich spots, skin velvety looking.
ph 8.4
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10
salinity 1.023
temp 78
parameters never varied, water changed every 2 weeks, premixed, preheated, ro/di water
All snails and cleaner shrimp are fine.
What am I doing wrong?

chadf · 05-23-2008, 10:27 PM

It's a new tank, when I started mine I lost a few fish mysteriously doing everything right. Don't add anything for about 6 weeks and you should be fine. BTW the most effective way to kill ich is by removing ALL fish into quarentine and treat them with copper, leave the tank fishless for 6 weeks...its the only sure way.

las4444 · 05-24-2008, 06:08 AM

I would also add some carbon for two weeks. This will give you comfort that any left over toxins from the new tank or deaths are taken out. A good 20% water change will get the trace elements back into the tank. Or you could add some kent marine trace elements. If you are planning on having a reef it would be good to get in the habit of adding trace elements.

I would add one fish after the carbon is removed after two weeks. Then wait the the next four weeks out and see how things go.

Your tank did the same thing mine did. I have only lost one fist to starvation in 8 months since restarting.

dairyguy · 05-24-2008, 06:37 AM

Thanks for your help.
I will do a 20% water change, add carbon and wait out my 6 weeks.
Then I will give it another try.
Since I have no fish in the tank now should I quarantine the new fish before I add them?

chadf · 05-24-2008, 06:55 AM

Thats always a good practice, but I have to admit I don't do it and I have the tank and equipment for one. For me, I think it's more stressful on them to sit alone in a little qt tank than going straight into a big tank full of rock and excellent water conditions.

unclejed · 05-24-2008, 05:09 PM

I agree with chadf, I have never been a proponent of QT tanks. Robert Fenner also stated the obvious that QTs are added stress. If you think about it, first the fish are caught in the ocean (stress) then put in the tank at lfs (more stress) and sometimes lfs has QT before the display tank (even more stress) then you get him and want to QT again and then put in your display! I choose to slow acclimate (45 min. to 1 hour). I have learned also to only go after hardy fish. After a lot of ich problems over the years from Tangs and other thin mucus coated fish I am happy with the more hardy ones.

las4444 · 05-25-2008, 07:36 AM

Don't do the 20% change until you run the carbon for two weeks. There is no point in wasting water when no fish are present in the tank.

I do not QT fish either. Not that it's a bad idea, but I agree with the others that the fish has one more change to adapt to.

Tommy Gun · 05-25-2008, 03:57 PM

Hey dairyguy - welcome to the forum!

First, sorry to hear about your losses. To be honest though, both butterflyfish and tangs seem to be a bit more tricky when it comes to the Ich issue - or at least as far as I have seen in my own tank and from reading posts on this forum. So, while it isn't really a good thing, the quasi-good news might be that a lot of people have gone through what you have and went on to find great success later on.

Secondly, I know that you say that your parameters never varied, but how often did you check them? Could it be that substantial changes were occurring over night and because you only checked in the day time, you never noticed? This was once a problem for me that I was able to solve by mixing in some crushed coral to my substrate since it helped to buffer and/or hold the pH of my tank at a relatively constant level 24/7. Also, after moving my saltwater tank back into my 90 gallon, I lost a couple of fish because I didn't realize that my water temp was dipping down under 60 degrees at night time. Obviously it was much cooler at night back then, but if you are like many of us in which our lights, pumps, and other equipment heats the water sans the help of a heater, you might want to peek in on the temp at night time when some of that equipment might not be on.

Another thing to consider is oxygen levels which can not only change between day and night depending on what types of life you have in your tank at any given time, but the ability for saltwater to hold dissolved oxygen is already diminished (versus freshwater) in the first place. IME thus far, I have noticed that having a good amount of surface water agitation not only helps out with problems such as algae in my saltwater tank(s), but I have also noticed that my fish were more active, colorful, and generally, seemed to be more 'happy'.

As far as q-tanks are concerned, you are probably thinking that it would be redundant to set up a smaller tank right now because yours is empty...and I would tend to agree. However, that would really only apply to your first addition of new fish and from that point on, it would be a good idea to quarantine the rest IMHO.

As far as not using a q-tank ever goes, I think there is some flawed logic in there. For example, even if a quarantine tank does pose some risk as a source of stress, we can't forget that we aren't really starting from square one anyways....meaning, the fish we buy have recently been captured (most of them anyways) from their natural habitat, flown/driven/or otherwise transported between wholesalers to retailers, and if nothing else, they have just been chased around an LFS' tank, put in a bag, transported to our homes and then acclimated to a whole new tank....so I feel that the real question is "is the relatively small stress of living in a q-tank for a few weeks (give or take) that much of a problem that we should skip them?

Besides, even in a FOWLR tank, you may find yourself needed to treat for some sort of issue that will place your live rock, clean up crew, and/or beneficial hitchhikers in jeopardy and so in my mind, a q-tank makes a whole lot of sense...and having one as soon as possible can't really be a bad idea.

Whatever the case may be though, I am sure that you are going to experience some growing pains in which losing fish is almost expected...but don't get discouraged!!! My advice would be to find yourself two, three, or four very hardy fish to start with again; probably sooner rather. This way you can provide the unseen life in your tank with some ammonia, nitrite and/or nitrate while you watch and gain some more experience. Personally, when I experienced problems or sadly in two cases, lost all of my fish, I started again with three or four blue/green chromis since they are hardy, active (since we all want to see fish in a fish tank, right?!?!?) and won't severely restrict your stocking later on in life unless you are going for some predators or something. Damsels are also a good choice, but they can be bullies to your future fish and trust me...they are very very hard to catch.

Obviously all of the above is only my opinions and experiences and they may suit you or anyone else but like I said, keep your chin up and you will make it through this....especially with the help of all the great people on fishtankforums.com. I know I couldn't have made it without them!!!

dairyguy · 05-28-2008, 11:50 AM

Thanks for all of the help.
I have completed a 20% water change, checked parameters again everything is the same as it was except nitrates have dropped to 5.
I will do testing at various times of the day and monitor water temp at night.
I have replaced the heater because even when it was turned all the way down it would never allow the tank to cool below 78 F even with the lights off. I have a new heater set at 76 F, it is consistently cycling between 75 and 77, at least during the daylight hours.
I have since lost 6 turbo snails, all of my cerinths and nassarius snails are still fine, and I have 2 peppermint shrimp that are doing fine.
Does anybody have any experience with ich attack killing turbo snails?
One other question, when feeding frozen food, do you add the frozen piece to the tank, or if you dissolve it in water, do you use cold water, hot water, tap water, RO water, etc?
Thanks again for everybody's help.

Nereaga · 05-28-2008, 04:10 PM

I cut up my frozen food in small pieces and let them thaw in a cup of pure RO/DI water with Selcon additives....

Brad