The Inevitable has Arrived....

Tommy Gun · 10-28-2007, 12:15 PM

Hello again everyone!

Well....as I was warned would most likely happen, my Achilles Tang has come down with what looks to be a relatively strong case of Ich over the past week, and while I have been trying to 'buy' myself some time by treating with Ich-Attack, I finally have a brand new q-tank set up which I will be more than willing to treat with copper. (To save time and a boring synopsis, I can promise you that the q-tank was cloned very well and not only holds quite a few bio balls from a filter that has been on my display tank for many months, but also has about 40 pounds of completely cured live rock in it, also from my display tank....and both are never to return).

So, after literally hours of me stalking this fish in order to catch the darn thing, it has been in the q-tank since 4 p.m. yesterday and to my surprise, it is looking extremely well today and swimming in the open...which it rarely did before, but that is another topic. To help reduce stress (hopefully anyways), I kept the lights off in this tank, other than moonlights, all night and the tank was covered. I also did not add any medications until about 20 minutes ago. My questions are:

1.) Because it is the only product I could find in my immediate area, I am going to be using SeaCure Copper Treatment which appears to be made by a company called Aquarium Systems. Being someone who has never used this, or any other copper based med, I am wondering if anyone else has used this product and if so, were you happy with the results?

2.) Given the fact that I not only understand the needs for this fish to be kept in well oxygenated water with, as always, ideal water quality, but have done everything I can to ensure those conditions are met, is there anything I need to consider and/or address when using this type of medication to help ensure that this tang has the best chance for survival?

3.) As I pointed out before, all of the live rock in this tank has come directly out of my display tank....which is fine with me since I will simply add some more base rock to that tank in order to cure it into live rock, so I can assure you that it will remain in this tank from this point forward. However, because it is well established live rock, there are relatively copious amounts of Coraline algae on it - green, red, and purple - and given the fact that it is still in a tank with sufficient lighting, will the copper have any negative effects on this colorful algae? Otherwise, what I am wondering is if it would be a waste of time and money for me to continue my dosing program of calcium and other supplements in order to maintain this algae and/or promote further growth?

4.) What, if any, recommendation as to a fish I might be able to keep in this q-tank in order to keep it cycled in the future? While I understand that I can do this in a couple different ways without the use of livestock, at this point in my life, I am not sure if I can guarantee I will be able to keep a consistent source of ammonia in the water without using a fish, who would do that for me. Basically I am looking for a fish, probably other than a damsel because the odds of it picking on or adding additional stress to a fish I might be treating are high, that can handle various meds....obviously, since I have already dedicated this live rock, I would like to keep this q-tank as a sort of FOWLR, sometimes hospital aquarium that is always running - and running in my living room.

Well, I am sure that I will have more questions soon...and I will try to update this thread with anything I come across and/or learn along my way.

chadf · 10-28-2007, 12:26 PM

Sorry to hear about your tang, I too am treating my coral beauty for ich with copper (using cupramine). When I was researching setting up hospital/quarentine tanks I came to believe that they should be bare bottomed with nothing porous in it (lr). I think this is because it sucks up (technical term) the meds. I'm not sure if that was the only reason though.

I learned a lot on the topic from Bob Fenner and his crew over on his website.

hell on wheels · 10-28-2007, 12:37 PM

I also recently had a run in with Ich and my hippo tang. I used the ich attack, that you mentioned. It actually worked great for me. Did the double dosage at the start, then down to the single dosage. Treated him for a few days after having zero signs of ich....Everything is good to go. Never had to resort to the copper. Good luck with your tang, hope all works out well.

Nereaga · 10-28-2007, 12:39 PM

Hello TG,

Im sorry to hear about your tang aswell. I used SeaCure copper treatment with my angelfish in the begining, and over dosed it by accident. It was early in my hobby years, I dont think I would make the same mistake.

Anyways, just make sure you are monitoring it carefully, esp with a tang. I hope everything works out for you. This has shown up quite awhile after introduction? 6 weeks?

Good to see you posting again too. Although not on good terms...

Brad

Andyoybna · 10-28-2007, 03:11 PM

I hope you havn't used to copper yet....

Anyways... Take out ALL of the liverock, and possibly ALL of the sand if you can....

The copper will kill your algae, and your nitrifying bacteria, there is no need for it in a Q tank if you're going to use copper. You can use malachite green if you want to keep the corraline, and bacteria alive, but it isn't as effective as copper.

If you use copper, the only way to reduce ammonia ( you won't have nitrifying bacteria) is frequent water changes.

Tommy Gun · 10-28-2007, 03:38 PM

Thanks for the kind words....I am sure this is to be expected with these tangs especially - so I am not surprised.

I have dosed copper once in this tank already, and technically do not really have a substrate other than a few handfulls of crushed coral in a bag. I am actually using this little invention of mine as substrate....just for looks I suppose.

So, if it is too late for the live rock as far as the copper goes, should I remove it anyways? It is not a big loss regarding the coraline algae goes, at least not in my mind...I did chose the worst peices I could find...but it does serve a good purpose in offering some decent hiding spots.

Andyoybna · 10-29-2007, 05:23 PM

Since you've already used copper in that tank before, it would be risky to ever put that LR back into a tank with any corals or inverts again. Since it is too late for the LR, and you can stand to lose it, no harm, no foul. And of course... even if no one but you ever sees it, whats the harm in having an asthetically pleasing Q-tank?

I guess it would help the fish having a more natural enviroment though, or at least closer to your display tank. I have had issues in the past with having a mostly bare Q-Tank, with just a filter, heater, and some large pieces of PVC for hiding places, and the fish never swam normally.

Tommy Gun · 10-31-2007, 10:30 PM

DANG IT ANDY!!!! You so jinxed me! This is going to sound nearly impossible to believe...and I can barely believe it myself, but I am coming to grips with the fact that it has happened:

Last night I was literally elbow deep in my display tank trying to catch this one damsel that I have been after for weeks (ironically, I can't catch it because I have too much rock in there), so I talked my wife through the copper test on the q-tank with the tank, and the results pointed out that I needed to add more of the SeaCure....which my wife did. In fact, she was so worried about adding too much, she counted out drops into a cup of tank water rather than dropping directly into the tank! (Amazingly smart woman, huh? I never would have thought of that myself...so simple, yet so off my radar!)

Anyways, after that, she set the bottle of SeaCure down on top of the tank (remember, it is a biocube) and walked away. Well, I can only speculate as to what might have happened, but my best guess is that in the morning, when the tank's lights came on (via a timer), and hence, the circulation fan came on, the bottle must have tipped over and about half of its contents dripped out...and since neither one of us was home during the day, I believe enough of it must have found its way through the hinge on the little 'door' on top and poof...the tang died

So, thanks for eluding to the risk of an overdose!!!

Ok, on a serious note, I am just kidding, I don't blame you, or anyone except me...and even then, this has to be one of those freak occurances that, while easily avoided, I couldn't have predicted or stopped unless I was worried about it. Yea, I am trying hard to diffuse the blame on this one -- I think this has to be the most dissapointing and/or disheartening loss I have suffered thus far. Money aside, I really wanted to keep this specific tang for as long as humanly possible.

Andyoybna · 11-04-2007, 09:48 AM

That really sucks, I know how you feel. I actually just recently lost my yellow tang, maybe a rock slide, maybe a coral sting... who knows. I just came home and he was swimming with his back almost bent in half, swam up behind some live rock, and died... Poor little guy.

Anyways, don't worry about that freak accident... stuff like that happens, and like you said..... who is anal enough to think: Hey, maybe... just maybe if I leave this bottle here, when the fan turns on, the bottle will accidentally fall over after a while from the vibrations, and then maybe it could open a little bit. Then... It could leak, and then that copper could somehow find its way through the lid into the water. Thats just really bad luck.

Tommy Gun · 11-05-2007, 07:37 AM

Thanks for the support Andy....the more I think about it, the more I feel like an idiot for leaving that bottle there. Apparently my parents were right about my bad habit of not tightening the caps on the peanut butter, syrup, and/or milk all those years ago!

I have taken a step back, so to speak, and picked up a yellow tang myself. I figured that this might be a good way to get some more experience with tangs and from what I hear, I shouldn't have nearly as tough of a time as I have been having with the other tangs I have. While this is my opinion and only my opinion, up to this point I had looked upon yellow tangs as sort of the SW aquarium 'cliche', meaning they were too common for my tastes, but to be completely honest, I think this new fish is going to become a very nice addition. It was also somewhat ironic that I ran into this fish because, as far as I have noticed, most of the yellows offered in my immediate area seem to be in pretty rough shape.

Anyways, I have the new fish in my origonal q-tank right (versus the one I used copper in). Is there anything other than a 100% water change that I should do in order to make my newly minted q/hospital tank safe again?

To be honest, I haven't even gotten around to the water change in that tank yet since I am not really in a rush, so I can't give any copper test results, but if I had (and probably will today), what sort of numbers should I be looking for as far as copper levels that newly purchased saltwater fish (if any) can deal with?

Should I throw away all of the substrate, or possibly even those peices of live rock in case they are currently holding on to some of the copper? (Obviously I have read about how copper is hard to completely remove from an aquarium, but can't recall what or how it is kept in there)

For any chemistry buffs out there, I was told by a coworker, who is taking some initial college courses right now, that his chem prof said that copper can be removed from water and the vessel it is in via some sort of process...whether that be via electricity (a copper magnet perhaps), or via some sort of chemical reaction. Since that coworker of mine has gone back to college, I only work with him every other week, so I am wondering if anyone knows what this prof is talking about so I don't have to wait until next week?

Again, thanks for helping me justify this silly mistake Andy! Unfortunately though, I think I have hit the bottom of the barrel of my bad luck (knock on wood) as of yesterday afternoon, but I will tell that horror story in another thread.