fish addict wants to go salt

orb4me

Im thinking about going salt.. I have a 10 gal fresh water thats been up and running for about 7 months. ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, ph 8.2. I forget the harness, but its high. I dont have test kits for the other things, Calcium etc.

I talked with lfs guy, and he said I have just about everything I need for a small tank, but as I read articles and threads, it looks like I need a skimmer and power head, as well as live sand etc. I want a star fish and a couple of clown fish. I have a power head that is running one of my filters (ugf) in the 29 gal tank, I could take that out. I have another filter in there. I have a 55 gal fw tank, but theres 4 parrot fish in there and I really like them. No room for another tank.

Do I have to have coral? Will fake coral work?

Not to mention the fish, so far I gather I need live sand, skimmer, a couple of some kind of testers. Tap water wont work? I know what RO water is, but where to get it is another story.

The 25 steps article is great, but what is the cannister for? Does a skimmer skim the top of the water off? What about salt and calcium build up on top inside edges of tank?

Different kind of lights? I have what ever came with the tank.

I'll stop here for now

Judge

Ok let's see if I can add anything helpful. First, I am not sure what size tank you're planning on making into SW but the bigger the tank, the better.
No, you do not have to have corals. You can have a fish only tank. Usually referred to as a FOWLR (fish only with live rock). Live sand and especially live rock IMO is necessary. They aid in natural filtration, and provide a more natural environ for our friends.
A skimmer is also necessary, it filters out some really nasty stuff. This is one area where I would not skimp on $$. You get what you pay for. I learned this along the way by getting a really cheap skimmer.
As far as RO/DI water you can get a good one on Ebay for less than $100 and then you don't have to worry about what kind of bad things start off in your water. Some people use tap and then add chemicals to get rid of chlorine/choramine. I try not to add a lot of chemical anything.
As for lighting it depends mostly on what you are planning for your watery friends. No corals then you can do without MH(metal halide) which are fairly costly. Instead you can use T5/HO (high output) Power Compact. They work well for me and there are some corals that do good with this type of lighting...my shrooms are growing by leaps and bounds!
That should give you some thinking food! I am sure someone a lot smarter than me will jump in and correct or add to. Good luck and we look forward to experiencing the adventure with you Orb.

Sharon

Tommy Gun

Hey Orb,

First, let me say that saltwater tanks do not need to be complicated and while they may require some more attention in certain aspects, some set ups can be even more simple than certain freshwater tanks.

For example, there is no requirement for any sort of coral to be present...while a skimmer can help, they are not an absolute requirement...while it isn't always ideal, tap water can work...RO water is generally easy to get ahold of...since fish and starfish aren't photosynthetic, you can use desk lamp if it suits your eyes...and what I feel many people sometimes forget, a saltwater tank does not necessarily require any special substrates (e.g. live sand) or live rock. Point being, this can be a venture that is much easier than you might be thinking right now.

In short, all a skimmer does is work to remove proteins from water by creating bubbles and then collecting the 'skin' from those bubbles. This is more or less a good way to maintain a higher level of water quality for life that is very sensitive (e.g. inverts such as anemones and corals which literally inflate themselves with the water they live in) over a longer period of time. The same thing can be accomplished via water changes and in fact, it wasn't until more recently that skimmers for small tanks really became easy to find.

Interestingly, the principles and science that makes your under-gravel filter work so well can also be put into use in a saltwater tank...only in this case, most people will use live rock because the very porous surface harbors all sorts of life, including beneficial bacteria. So, simply put, all we really need to do is find a way to push water across the rock in order to gain biological filtration. In fact, my saltwater tank has been "filter free" (in the traditional sense anyways) for more than a year as all I am using are a few water pumps that I have hidden behind my live rock. However, you do not have to have live rock and in those cases, you can easily get away with a cheap filter from walmart on your 10 gallon the same way I have been on my SW quarantine tanks.

What I am really trying to get across to you Orb is that SW tanks do come with a reputation of being difficult or hard to manage but this is only a reputation...sort of like how everyone thinks I am an amazingly strong, extremely handsome, unapproachable guy when in reality, I am a gentle and caring man who wouldn't kill a water spider Anyways, I really think that you can do this if you take the time to research your options and choose the most ideal set up for you and your lifestyle. Of course, you also have some wonderful tech support at your finger tips so be sure to ask any and every question that you need to.

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Ahhh, once again I step on Judge...sorry about that; we must have been posting at the same time. Obviously we do differ a little bit on some items but that is fine. IMHO, it might be worth picking up a master test kit in order to test your tap water to see how imperative it might be that you use RO water. However, because of the larger array of items in the water than we can affect via a water change in a SW tank, the good news for you is that it might be easier and cheaper for you to simply find a grocery store (even the "Super Walmart" near my house) that has one of those "water stations" to pick up a couple gallons of RO water each week or two...or even go with the distilled water option. In general, because the salt mix that you will be using contains all of the major and minor elements your SW livestock will thrive on, starting with the most pure water is going to help you have more control over items such as phosphates....which, of course, is great for controlling the 'bad' algae.

Perhaps Judge and I are thinking a little bit differently as to what your goals might be here - which is absolutely fine and does not make one of us more right or wrong - but I do disagree about needing any other sort of light than what you have right now UNLESS you are planning on adding photosynthetic life such as corals or anemones; and even then the light requirements would be situational. In fact, even coralline algae (which most people look upon as being 'good') doesn't neccessarily require a lot of light and can be promoted relatively easily via calcium supplimentation. Anyways, in Fish Only or FOWLR tanks, the most important consideration for lighting is, in general, what looks good to your eyes....just like a Freshwater tank that doesn't have any plants.

orb4me

Thanks Judge and Tommy Gun. I can already see that SW tanks are a lot like FW tanks, depends on what all you want. For right now (as with my first FW tank), I want to play around, and not go over board like the have the FW. Maybe the lfs guy was right. My granddaughter and her husband have over $6,000 in their 300 gal (and prob a lot more by now)

Im going reading, and reading some more. There is a lot about water that I dont know. I will back when I think I have some basics figured out and make sure I got it right.

Tommy, this is the 10 gal tank that you saved for me about 7 or 8 months ago.
Me and the neons had a fall onto the kitchen floor and only 2 or 3 survived, I put them in with gourmis, bad idea. I only got cracked ribs.

edit: read that I can add live rock and sand (caribbean play sand sounds right to me) to my FW tank? no real cycing needed?

Tommy Gun

Not sure exactly what you mean....you can't put live rock and/or live sand directly into fresh water and expect it to live...but if you refill your 10 gallon tank with saltwater and add cured live rock and cured live sand, you are essentially cloning the tank and may be able to fore go much of the cycling process. There are going to be some considerations to make in your planning process so when/if you get to that point, we can help you out more precisely.

Please understand that yes, you can spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on a saltwater aquarium and you could probably approach the thousand dollar mark on a 10 gallon tank without too much effort, but on the other hand, you can do exactly the opposite and spend minimal amounts of money on a SW tank and save so much so that the costs are nearly comparable to a FW tank when all is said and done. You also have a ton of options that will allow you to have a SW tank today and slowly work your way up to the "dream aquarium" you might be thinking of without clearing out a bank account all at once so long as you plan correctly. Even though I completely agree with Judge in that there are a lot of benefits to starting out large, from our brief conversations, I think that you are probably a good candidate for starting out small because you learn fast and seem to have the patience to monitor things closely. Again, I truly think this is something you can do without spending 6,000 dollars and without cracking any more ribs. Two more quick points though:

1). From this point forward, make sure that any new fish you bring home are fully aware that you will not tolerate them walking across your kitchen floor because it is slippery

2). Do your very best not to enable your fish from crossing the kitchen floor by carrying them yourself as it is not going to teach them the lesson in point #1.

Judge

Oh my..are we in a RJR mood??? Not bad for an extremely handsome, stong addict like yourself there, TG. I think ORB will do very well however she decides to go, especially with all the helpful advice from people who really care. I could not agree more with you as far as cost goes and difficulty. Most responses I have had tend to think it is so hard to do and yes, very expensive. I think it all depends on what the individual wants.
PS:
I too have a slippery kitchen floor, this is why we employ a crosswalking guard!

Tommy Gun

Actually, not very many people realize this but before we hired him to become a permanant addition to FTF's banner and primary mascot, Brady the Butterflyfish was the crossing guard for his school. Don't believe me? Keep an eye on his tail fin in this audition video he sent in:

RJRofFL

Hi. I'm chiming in here because I felt my ears ringing!

The solution to the kitchen, Orb, would be to post signs. After all, if the fish went to school, they should have learned to read.

Otherwise, you might want to consider using a skateboard to cross the room.

Brady is one talented Butterflyfish, TG. I wonder if he can play the accordian, too?

I've felt the need for a school crossing guard at times, since my fish are always darting out in traffic. I tried to enlist the Dwarf Gouramis for the task, but they insisted on more than the three flakes an hour I was going to pay them. Besides, they refused to wear that stupid reflective vest!

Best of luck, Orb, in your new "Salt Adventure."

Bob

orb4me

The little fish loved their school,
they wanted to stay in their pool.

They had a schoolmarm,
that meant them no harm.

For a new school so bright,
to bring them some light.

The city had a new bond,
and she had to quickly respond.

The school was being moved,
all had been approved.

No one knew that a little slip,
would be such a horrible trip.

Brady flashed red,
he approached with dread.

Only a few would live,
none to survive.

CPR was given,
none were really liven.

The end (I think)

Im not sure if this site brings out the best or the worst in me

I guess I'm going to need step by step instructions for this tank.

1. Take out old gravel.
2. put in cultered live rock and sand.
3. add premixed saltwater.

ok, If thats right, do I use the same filter bag and charcoal, sponge thingys?

I'll need a saltwater test kit? I got lost in all the stuff I was reading on line yesterday. cooper, magnesium, etc. threw me for a loop. then a hydrometer? that other thing is rather pricey.

Tommy Gun

Orb...I am seriously starting to think you may have missed your calling!!!

Anyways, all I can really add regarding your three step plan would be to flip #2 and #3 since the live rock you are after is going to progressively die off (and hence, cease to be 'live') depending on how long it is out of water and/or in water that does not meet the needs of the various forms of life that are trying to stay alive on the surface of the rock. You would also be well advised to pre mix your saltwater in a separate vessel and with the aid of some device (e.g. power head), allow the water to churn for a while to ensure that all of the salt mix has dissolved. In general, I tend to mix up some water and wait approximately 24 hours before putting it in your tank. IME, you would eventually realize that mixing water directly in the tank is more trouble than it is worth.

You can use the same filter media IMO and IME. In general, the bacteria we are dealing with are the same in FW and SW so the media is going to be ok in both applications....assuming that it is not comprised of a material that may react with the elements in your salt mix (which I cannot think of what that might be at this very moment). You may also want to replace the carbon media if it has been a while since you did so.

FYI - As far as I know and/or have read, even though the beneficial bacteria may be the same in either type of water, you are not going to be able to 'clone' a SW tank from a FW tank, or vice versa.

As far as the test kit goes, at least a few companies supply their various test with a chart for both freshwater and saltwater but if your's does not, IMHO this is an area of your future SW tank that you should not skimp on; particularly if you might want to add any corals, anemones, or other inverts. However, I do think that you could start out with the bare essentials (i.e. ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, Kh) if you cannot find/afford a master test kit right off the bat. From there, you may be able to spread out the costs by picking up the rest of the test kits as you need them.

IMHO, a hydrometer is a decent tool and of course, cheaper than a refractometer. However, in order to help ensure any level of accuracy, you will need to care for, store, and maintain a hydrometer in the correct manner. IME, a hydrometer is probably the most used piece of equipment I own.