live rock?

jimnjamie2703

I have a simple question....I've seen on the internet places that sell fake "live rock". Rock that looks like live rock but isnt...says it helps save the ecosystem or something instead of people taking rock from the ocean. So my question is can you have a saltwater tank successfully without live rock? Can you use fake rock to make the fish feel secure and safe? If you use fake rock what kind of filtration is then needed? Just the usual filters like the HOB filters? Sorry for all of the questions....just curious about that before I start my tank up. Thanks alot!!!

Chitown1

Welcome to the forum, you never need to apologize for asking questions.

You do not need to have LR in a saltwater tank, you can absolutely have a fish only set up and be very successful. The type of filtration really depends on the size of the tank, for a fish only you can go with a cannister filter (Eheim, Fluval etc.) or a sump with some bio balls. The one thing I do recommend you get regardless of having a fish only, FOWLER or a reef is a goo protein skimmer. These also vary depending on the tank size and wether you need a in sump or hang on model.

jimnjamie2703

Thanks for the reply.....it really helped, every LFS around here says you have to put in live fock for the filtration, but then I saw the sites about the fake live rock, so I was curious. I know about the skimmer, but for a 55 gal what would be the best one to buy? Can you not use regular filters for freshwater in saltwater? I have 2 Whisper 30-60 power filters for my 55 gal freshwater tank. I was thinking of trading my fish for store credit at our LFS, and change over to salt, but I was wondering if I did fish only (still havent decided if I'll go with LR yet or not) would I be able to use my 2 filters or would I need to buy different kinds. I really dont want to go with the sump thing because my tank's stand is open underneath, no doors, so I wont be able to hide it. Any suggestions will help alot....thanks for the welcome, I love boards like these, you learn so much!

Chitown1

For a 55 I would go with a Remora C since you do not plan on a sump. It is prob. the best hang on skimmer you can get and it costs less than $200, well worth the invest. For filtration, I would go with a cannister for a fish only, it is far more efficent than a hang on as you can mix up the media to meet your needs, I would not use a cannister for a tank with live rock though as it will require to much maint. to keep it from raising you nitrates. A Fluval 405 would be a great filter for a 55, it is not over priced, has 4 chambers for media and is small enough to keep under the tank without being a eye sore.

jimnjamie2703

Thanks alot I'll definately check those out!

WhoDey

I just want to answer what I think your first question was... Live Rock does not need to come from the ocean to be live rock. The term "live" is used because of all the creatures that live on and in the rock. Lots of people make rock out of cement and drill holes in it. The only difference is that it will take a lot longer to become "live" enough to support your tank as a bio-filter. I'm not sure what you mean by fake rock... this could be a number of things... could be base rock (dry rock), Rock not collected from reefs(ie. tonga, carribean). Some companies actually place large amounts of rock into the ocean and then harvest it after it becomes populated with life. (it is illegal to collect real rock off the coasts of the US) (this is the most eco friendly way). Other places collect directly from the reef, which is a no no. You can buy 50 lbs of base rock and then use 30 lbs of LR from an established system or "rock farm" and this will save you some money. In a year or so you won't be able to tell the difference. Hope that helps. (IMO, LR looks much better than fish only) Also, it will balance your tank better than filters and chemicals.

Chitown1

There is no national or international standard when it comes to naming marine aquarium rock. Even if you don't buy into my naming system (see below) keep in mind that when you communicate with someone regarding aquarium rock that the both of you are using words that you first define to each other. There are many people in the hobby that would mis-represent rock by carelessly tossing about words. Don't be fooled. Ask.
Rock with no life in or on it is called 'dead rock.' Some people call this 'base rock' but I don't. You'll find that the use of the phrase 'base rock' means different things to different people. Here I want to be clear and, whatever you choose to call it, make sure you and the person(s) you are communicating with are using the same definitions not words.
Rock with some coralline life on it, but nothing much else is called 'base rock' or maybe you're more comfortable calling it 'live dead rock?' It is more than dead rock, but isn't fully functional like live rock, as it relates to the handling of nitrogen wastes.
'Up' from the level of base rock, rock can have other organisms living on it (e.g., polyps, complex algae, pods, corals, etc.); or organisms living on and IN it. This is called 'live rock.' But there are different levels of life on and in live rock, which make live rock have different 'levels' of being alive.
Rock right out of the ocean/sea is true live rock and stands as the 'most alive' of the live rock. It has this distinction by virtue of the diversity of life on and in the rock. It has a grand diversity of life and lifeforms. It took decades to hundreds of years for that life to take up residence on and in that rock. But this rock can't be shipped to the user, without being submerged in water. Decades ago we used to get this kind of live rock from the sea. It was shipped in water and had ALL the lifeforms represented on and in it as if it was still in the ocean. Today, shipping rates and fuel costs prohibit this. So the rock ships without water. Often it is kept moist by wrapping it in paper/newspaper wet with saltwater.
To ship moist like this without 'rotting' along the way, the rock first has to be cleaned of organisms that would die when they are exposed to air (e.g., sponges). During this process, most (if not all) crabs, shrimp, etc. are also cleaned off.
Many but not all things in and on the rock die during moist transport. So the wholesaler/LFS or aquarist gets the harvested rock and has to further cure it. After curing, this is about as alive the live rock will ever be for the aquarist. It's a considerable difference from the rock that was in the sea as far as diversity of lifeforms is concerned. But this is what we call and mean by 'live rock.'
But, even more cleaning and curing can be done along the way which further reduces the diversity of life on and in the rock so that the aquarist gets various levels of life on and in the live rock. Although curing makes the rock less polluting for the aquarium, it may also destroy and may remove more of the natural lifeforms in and on the rock.
Ever read or hear of fully cured live rock? Seems like an oxymoron. If the rock is fully cured, then it should be dead rock, right? A misnomer for sure, but we accept it. In general, this term means the live rock is ready to be put into the aquarium, but the aquarist should ask just how cured it is. Is there any lifeforms still in and on the live rock? If so, find out what they are. If you're told it is 'live rock' because it has coralline growing on it, don't buy it. Offer to buy it as base rock until other life forms on and in the rock are known to be present.
Just because the rock is covered with coralline, it doesn't mean it is live rock. That is why I've built in the category/name of dead rock and base rock to account for this fact.
There is also 'aquacultured live rock.' This is dead, base, or man-made rock that is placed in the ocean. It will develop lifeforms on and in it, but because it hasn't been in the ocean for decades, the diversity of life on and inside this rock is limited. This doesn't mean this rock is 'bad.' It is very responsible for aquarists to try and seek out buying cultured live rock, in order to spare our natural reefs. But just don't expect the entire width and breadth of lifeforms in such rock as you would from live rock having been in the sea for decades. This rock is also usually shipped moist (wrapped in paper), so some initial or at least final curing is needed.
the nitrifying bacteria that handle nitrogen wastes in the nitrification process (converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate)? These bacteria are on live rock. They are on dead rock and base rock too. The rock just serves as a surface for them to stick to. Fish wastes and oxygen in the water provide their nutrients/food. So no matter what rock is put into the marine aquarium, it will act as this nitrification part of the biological filtration system (after enough of these bacteria multiply). This is not the real value of live rock, however, when it comes to bacteria.
There is another set of bacteria that is responsible for turning nitrates into nitrogen gas (and other compounds). The process is 'denitrification' and is performed by denitrifying bacteria that don't like to live in areas where there is oxygen. They are found in tight-packed soils, in lower levels of substrates, inside of porous rocks and places (like tiny crevices and worm holes (with or without the living worm still there!) where there is low oxygen content.
The real value of live rock in the marine aquarium is what these denitrifying bacteria are doing just under the surface and in crevices of the rock. Denitrifying bacteria (unlike the nitrifying bacteria) can only live and grow where there is little or no oxygen, so we don't find them growing everywhere. (NOTE: They can be found almost everywhere, but just not growing.) The real value of live rock in the biological filtration process is the denitrification it can perform in the marine aquarium.
How live rock performs the denitrification isn't fully understood. Many theories and models have been proposed. That topic is a whole other post in of itself! Scientists try to explain what we know: Live rock not only will function in the nitrification process but will also function in the denitrification process. So the 'right kind' of live rock can help remove nitrates in an aquarium.

Nereaga

Great post!

jd@ga

It kills me "save the earth" , "erase your carbon footprint", "hole in the ozone" ! PEOPLE USE YOUR OWN MINDS , EVERYTHING IS A RIP OFF NOW DAYS AND PEOPLE ARE CHANGING YOUR LIFE BY THROWING THIS CRAP AROUND SAYING THIS AND THAT WILL SAVE THE EARTH ! MEANWHILE THEY ARE PROFITTING FROM SELLING MEDIA , CREATING NEW TAXES , LIVING MORE LUXURIOUS LIFESTYLES THAN THE AVERAGE LIFESTYLE. THE ONLY IMPACT FOLLOWING MOST OF THESE GIMMICKS IS $$$$$$$ IN SOMEONES POCKETS. ALL I`M SAYING PPL IS THINK ABOUT THE WHOLE PICTURE AND THINK FOR YOURSELF!

Chitown1

Lets keep this aquarium related, there is no reason to offend someone for being conscious about the enviroment.