Starting 75g first salt water tank - Page 2

Fitler · 07-05-2009, 04:09 PM

Well let me first say Thank you very much for your help so far, it is greatly appreciated! Tomorrow is supplies day meaning getting some new buckets and a large container for premixing water, plus a few new nets and probably a small heater for heating premixed water. Then its on the more expensive things such as skimmer and lights. Im going to check if my walmart has the RO water here and that will be the deciding factor on if im going to order a filter or not. I found a guy on ebay that is selling T5HO's with moonlights for a pretty good price. I don't have the $$ for metal halide right now and with my current plans T5s outta be just fine.

The lights I am looking at though are rated at 12k which I know should be more blue then anything and will be putting out enough light to equal out to around 2.5w per gallon. I really want to get that coraline to flourish on the live rock. I fear though that 2.5w per gallon may be a bit much for that and I hope it doesn't bleach it out. You have to have much higher lighting though for that to happen right? From my understanding coraline doesn't require more then a couple watts per gallon to really get going. I think that between that and a few lower light corals, it will create the look I am going for. This tank is sitting in the living room right now empty and its killing me lol but thats alright it will be up in time.

lostanime · 07-06-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitler

The lights I am looking at though are rated at 12k which I know should be more blue then anything and will be putting out enough light to equal out to around 2.5w per gallon. I really want to get that coraline to flourish on the live rock. I fear though that 2.5w per gallon may be a bit much for that and I hope it doesn't bleach it out. You have to have much higher lighting though for that to happen right?

2.5w per gallon isn't enough to causing bleaching with coralline etc... we're running 6w per gallon in our nano, and 5w per gallon in our display and coralline grows better then we would like!

(pretty much takes using a razor blade to the inside of the glass weekly to get it off...) make sure your calcium and magnesium levels are right if you want your coralline growth to take off.

12k kelvin may not look blue at all. We run 14k and 20k - the 20k tints the tank a little blue (and the reflectors on the lights look bluish when lights are on) but the 14k aqualine bulbs we run are stark white. the 14k coralife (free) bulbs we run look a LITTLE blue but still mostly white.

And I can totally relate with how hard it is to wait - our first tank sat dry for nearly a month while hashing out all the design and technical issues and acquiring all the gear necessary, and during our rebuild, our big tank was down for yet another month despite already having everything we needed (because of the time it took to reinforce and support the floor joists, repaint room, redo floor, building of new stand, drilling tanks, lots of pressure testing for leaks in plumbing, etc etc... since it's hard to "redo" most of that, has to be right before running the tank!)

Fitler · 07-06-2009, 01:40 PM

I was thinking 12k was much bluer then it actually is I guess lol. So what can one do to make sure calcium and magnesium levels are good to go? I went ahead and got coralife salt mix which is supposedly high in calcium. It seemed like a better choice then the instant ocean stuff I see at the stores.

Another thing I went ahead and ordered was a couple Koralia powerheads that put out 850gph each which will spit out my water about 22x each hour.

You said you had the Remora skimmer right? Which would you recommend for me? The one I have my eyes set on is the one with the Rio 1400 pump that has a flow rate of 420g per hour. Im sort of confused though because there is the option to get the mag-drive 3 pump instead but its more $$ and has a lower flow rate of 320gph or something around there. Thats the part I dont understand.

The last thing I can think of right now has to do with live sand. What is this stuff that fish stores sell that claim to be live sand? Its all packaged up so I don't get how anything that has been sitting that long can be considered "live". If I were to put this sand in with my live rock, will it eventually become true "live" sand.

Okay that covers it for now and im sure I will be thinking of more stuff shorty lol.

lostanime · 07-06-2009, 05:24 PM

Have your local fish store test your calcium and magnesium if you don't pick up kits yourself... I use the tropic marin pro-calc and mag additives to boost mine in our smaller tank because it's safe and easy (although many other brands, like kent and seachem make stable calcium and magnesium additives) and I mix kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) with my top-off water for my big tank so it's slowly but steadily receiving calcium (kalkwasser is NOT for beginners - overdosing it will actually precipitate your calcium and magnesium, and the mixture has a very high PH so it can kill everything if not properly dosed)

I've never used coralife but read good reviews. I've always used instant ocean when setting up tanks (slightly low on calc and mag) without having probs, and then I use tropic marin pro reef salt for water changes because it has an artificially high calcium and magnesium level (helps compensate for what the corals are using)... the local reef club is VERY fond of reef crystals brand salt though.

and your dead on with "live sand" in bags. it's just a wet bag of various bacteria feeding on the things that were originally live, without any of the biodiversity of true live sand. Using regular aragonite (calcium based) sand is fine. I would personally recommend filling a bucket with saltwater similar to your setup (possibly during a water change?)... fill a cup half full of sand, and fill it in the bucket with water and pour the water out over and over until the water pours clear so you can get all the cloudy powder out of the sand before adding it to your tank. It will still cloud your tank a LITTLE, but if you just dump a bag in... your tank is going to look like a thick cloud for a few days, and every time the sand bed gets moved it will begin to cloud all over again.

I dont have the remora, but I'm personally much more fond of the danner manufactured magdrive pumps then the rio pumps. mag drives are practically bullet proof.

lostanime · 07-06-2009, 05:29 PM

oh, and if you go with mag-drives, make sure you carefully pull the impeller housing STRAIGHT off and clean regularly. The impellers are ceramic (like most pumps nowadays)... and if you wait a year or two before cleaning the ends will stick in the pump due to calc carbonate buildup, and the shaft might crack (or if you don't pull straight, shaft may crack...) I kept breaking our shafts while cleaning them, but they went 18+ months between cleanings without any malfunctions which is MUCH better then our rio and quietone pumps (had to clean rio every 3-6 months, and quietone needed to be cleaned monthly and still didn't restart half the time)

Judge · 07-06-2009, 05:42 PM

Actually, I am the one with the Remora..would not trade for it. Plug and go and once it gets going it produces loads of yuck. I would go with the one with the Rio rated at 420. As far as salt, well that's what makes a horse race. I know folks who swear by Instant Ocean, I never found it to be "stable" for lack of a better word. I have used Oceanic and have had very good results. Like I said, it is a preference thing and I am certain you could find someone who would vouch for all the other unnamed brands!

Fitler · 07-06-2009, 07:38 PM

I will probably just end up getting a kit for testing the calcium and magnesium so its easier then going to the store over and over for testing.

Also, where should I be pointing my powerheads when the tank is up and running? Should they be pointed down towards the rock work or around the top of the tank?

Something else I want to know is when I am letting the tank cycle with the live rock, do I have to perform any water changes as it cures to keep ammonia levels at bay? If ammonia levels get too high curing cycling, wont it kill off the living organisms on the rock before the tank has a chance to rid off the ammonia on its own?

lostanime · 07-06-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitler

I will probably just end up getting a kit for testing the calcium and magnesium so its easier then going to the store over and over for testing.

Also, where should I be pointing my powerheads when the tank is up and running? Should they be pointed down towards the rock work or around the top of the tank?

Something else I want to know is when I am letting the tank cycle with the live rock, do I have to perform any water changes as it cures to keep ammonia levels at bay? If ammonia levels get too high curing cycling, wont it kill off the living organisms on the rock before the tank has a chance to rid off the ammonia on its own?

Just make sure you have no dead spots and you'll be good

I keep at least some current directed down behind the rock work, and the rest of the current crisscrosses (to create turbulent flow, which is much healthier for corals then linear flow which can actually damage coral)... it's good to have at least one power head flowing near the top to create tension/waves for aeration and dissipating heat.

As far as cycling, your live rock has some of the bacteria for the nitrogen cycle already, so your ammonia shouldn't get extremely high before your cycling takes place. I wouldn't bother with water changes until your cycle's complete, and wouldn't start slowly adding fish until after that...

Fitler · 07-07-2009, 11:02 PM

Trust me its going to a long time before I get around to adding fish to this tank lol I will be lucky to have the tank cycling in a couple months time. In your experience what is the typical amount of die off expected from adding live rock to a brand new tank? The reason I ask is because the place I plan on ordering from has some amazing looking rock with all kinds of organisms living on it. I am just concerned that using the rock for cycling will kill off many of these things. I know some die off is expected. The place I am going with ships their rock straight from their large holding tanks overnight and they claim that trying to cycle the rock will kill off much of whats on it already. Like you said though, the rock will have bacteria still on it so im hoping that aids in minimal die off, well as minimal as to be expected.

lostanime · 07-08-2009, 12:16 AM

If the live rock is already "cured", much of the die-off and establishment of nitrifying bacteria has already taken place, and the cycle may be very short and not particularly pronounced. That's one of the great things about using live rock for cycling - the critters on live rock produce very little waste, so if the live rock was cured before going into your tank, there wont be a substantial die-off and the cycle, if noticable at all, will be quick. The downside is that critters on cured live rock... well, don't produce very much waste, so after cycling, your filtration will be ramped up for handling the small bioload of critters on live rock, not for handling a bunch of fish so you'll need to take it slow stocking (which is a VERY good idea regardless) I'd just sit around until you start seeing your nitrate levels going up, and once your ammonia/nitrite levels are undetectable AFTER your nitrate levels start rising, do a water change and start your first (SLOW) round of stocking fish. For the first round, I would personally recommend not adding more then 1-2 smaller fish and letting them run gamut for a couple weeks before considering a couple more. The reason I'm recommending going with smaller fish is because larger fish produce exponentially more waste (not to mention are more expensive)

In case you haven't started looking around at fish yet - damsels make great beginner fish. Most can be particularly mean/aggressive (like domino/stripe/velvet/etc) but chromis are a notable exception to this. Clowns are extremely closely related to damsels and for the most part are also very hardy, although a little more $$ and pretty much all clowns can be a little scrappy at times (I've had a 1.5" fake percula actually draw blood once!) Gobies can also be pretty hardy, great beginner fish although I would strongly recommend to stay away from "mandarin gobies" and the like - despite marketing they are actually dragonets and due to extreme dietary needs are VERY hard to keep alive in small tanks (yet offered for $10-$30 apiece)

Particular groups of fish I'd recommend to stay away from until the tank is seasoned (has 6 months minimum) would include angels, butterflies, and the like. They can be very delicate, and tend to thrive better older funky tanks with more grunge to scavenge through vs sterile new tanks, and they are also extremely sensitive to cycles. I also love keeping tangs personally, but would also hold off for a while if your considering these because they also need alot of green to graze on, are some of the most hyperactive fish available, and are particularly sensitive to disease (such as ich) and stress.