Ich Frustrations!!!!!

saltyfish dude · 02-05-2007, 10:42 PM

I currently have an ich problem in one of my three saltwater tanks. I have been keeping saltwater for about a year now. My first was my 100 gal reef, the second, which is the one I am having the problem with, is a 72 gal bowfront with about 80 lbs of live rock. And I also have a 50 gal corner tank which is currently cycling. My problem is the ich that is mostly affecting my auriga butterfly in my 72 gal. I understand the whole "quarantine" and "hospital tank" concept, and I have had success with it. However I am extremely frustrated with this method, although it works great on the particular fish itself, I will admit, the problem ultimately is the ich is already in the main system by the time you notice the problem. There is all this info on prevention and individual fish cure, but this helps me none. Does anyone have experience or an opinion on getting rid of the problem in the main system, keeping in mind the live rock. Do you know of any way to treat the main system without tearing it down, there has got to be a way. Please share your ideas..........Neal in Grover Beach, CA.....

WhoDey · 02-05-2007, 11:16 PM

I may have a solution here for you. For curing ich (cryptocaryon irritans) in a reef tank use malachite green. The correct amount is .05 ppm three treatments, one every other day. Do not use one drop per gallon as recomended by some companies. Example: For a .75% solution use 4 drops per 10 gallons. If you use more than that you are risking your fish's life as well. This is a safe solution to your problem if used as directed. If you need help with the math let me know!

-Nate

saltyfish dude · 02-05-2007, 11:28 PM

please tell me you have used this product yourself with your own live rock. I only have one invert that is a red hermit crab, and if need be I will get rid of him, but I also have a snowflake eel which is a scaleless fish. So please tell me, have you used this product yourself, and how much experience do you have in this hobby? and how will it affect inverts and scaleless fish, Im going to do s little research on it now.........

Tommy Gun · 02-05-2007, 11:34 PM

From what I understand, tangs and butterflies are pretty much Ich magnets and so the fact that you seem to keep having it pop up is not all that surprising. I am not sure if you know, but Marine Ich is actually a totally different parasite than freshwater Ich, so for the most part, the traditional malachite green and formalyn products are not very effective.

The two 'best' methods for treating marine ich, as far as what I have read and I am not sure if 'best' is a label I would want to place on it, are hyposalinity (lowering the salinity to approx 1.010 to 1.013-ish) or using copper based salts/meds. Both of them are tough on inverts and I really cannot say how important it would be to use a hospital/q-tank for copper based treatments.

I have a heniochus butterfly (banner fish or poor man's idol, depending on who you ask) and it actually has some pretty good signs of Ich right now. I also have a hippo tang, probrably one the bigger ich magnets, and he has no ich at all, nor do the other fish. I can only attribute this to the UV filter I added to the tank just before bring the bannerfish and tang home. This is how you can possibly rid the tank entirely of Ich. Ich is not just the white spots and at one point in its life, it swims in the water, gets caught up by the UV filter and dies (hopefully). The trick is to find the right UV and pump combo so that you can keep the water in the UV chamber for as long as possible.

Otherwise, and what I really suggest as in combination with a UV filter, is to pick up some cleaners. I know that the cleaner wrasse is a pretty highly debated fish since they die pretty quicky in an aquarium but then again, some people have had success in keeping them long term or at least longer term. I have also had a bad experience with neon gobies, which is not to say you would or might, but they are so small that they can get sucked up into a powerhead pretty easily, which was my problem. Right now, I have two fire shrimp, which I was told are really good cleaners and clean fish more than just the live rock. Mine are very reclusive and I cannot really say how much they clean my fish because I never see them. However, I did pick up a cleaner shrimp the other day and it has been out in the open almost the entire time since I brought it home and I see it cleaning fish all the time, and actually going to the fish rather than waiting for the fish to come to it. It has made a big dent in the white spots on my bannerfish and I am pretty happy with it right now.

Tommy Gun · 02-05-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

but I also have a snowflake eel which is a scaleless fish.

I dont think that this is quite the same issue as it would be with a freshwater scaleless fish just because SW fish are used to the salt in the water which to me suggests that the lack of scales is not a problem. I dont know that for certain though.

Sorry to go against you on this one Whodey. I just think that using M green could be too harsh for a saltwater fish or tank in general. The reason I came to that conclusion is becaue unlike freshwater fish, saltwater fish take in a lot of the saltwater in their bodies. This is why they are more sensitive than FW fish typically. It is also why I would think that M green in the water could eventually build up in a SW fish and cause more harm than good.

saltyfish dude · 02-06-2007, 12:13 AM

I usually take a stand whenever it comes to adding additives, or treatments, or chemicals to any of my tanks. I really don't want to add anything to my 72 bowfront. I did however place my UV sterilizer back in this particular tank yesterday(submersible in tank type). I don't usually use it at all, I save it for circumstances like this however. It is just strange to see this Fish that is supposed to be one of the hardiest butterflies become covered with this ich, when the other fish don't even get a trace of it. In the same tank; diana's hogfish, no ich, Eible's Angelfish, no ich, Snowflake eel, absolutley none, Blue devil, not a trace( although he is the newest addition, only a day or so). And even at this current moment of this post, even the butterfly has none, but I'm almost certain I'll wake up tomorrow morning, check the fish and he'll be covered again! what the hell!? ya know what I mean? and until earlier today, I had a my vlamingee tang that I had mentioned last week I had just gotten (a week ago now), was in the same tank and in the whole last week, I've only seen three spots in all on him as well, when these fish are supposed to be the weakest fish when it comes to ich. I've read that they have a thinner slime coat which makes them more vulnerable.) And I also had a diadema or purple stripe dottyback in there as well, and he only had very small signs of this ich, but only since the butterfly was added. I have since moved the vlamingee and dottyback to my reef setup where the only time I have ever had an ich problem was upon introducing my pacifac blue tang. He was so covered, I thought for sure He was done for. And while he was looking like he was on his way out, not one other fish, including my chocolate tang, showed even a trace. fortunatly, the blue tang settled in and completely fought of the infections. Since then, I have basically been Ich free in my 100 gal reef setup (as far as on the fish anyway, I'm sure there are traces of it in the water still even though it was six months ago). The blue tang still gets a couple white spots from time to time, but nothing that doesn't go away in a couple of days, and now he is one of the healthiest fish I have and he's turned out great!

I guess I'm just saying that this ich is frustrating and I'm convinced that everyone must get it regardless of quarantining or not. You cant qt live rock in copper or other meds, so Im sure the ich must come in most tanks on the rock or something. I just think it is amazing how one fish can look like he is gonna die from it or something , while his tankmates don't even show a trace, VERY PERPLEXING! ............well, hopefully my uv sterilizer will help and tomorrow on the way home from work I am gonna get at least one good sized skunk cleaner shrimp and let him "go to town" on that butterfly and hopefully I can get away with adding anything to the water! WISH ME LUCK!

alexfevery · 02-06-2007, 12:25 AM

there is another solution,

take all your fish out of the main tank and put them in a hospital tank,

treat the hospital tank with copper or malachite green and/or fermaldahyde, ive heard ferm works well in combo with mal green IE-RidIch+

treat them for about 24 days,

and by then all of the parasites in the main display will have died off due to lack of a host.

i think it is the only sure fire way to make sure Ich never comes back.

A UV sterilizer can also help/

saltyfish dude · 02-06-2007, 12:28 AM

thats sounds like a solid suggestion as well, thanx alex!

Tommy Gun · 02-06-2007, 12:45 AM

I guess that regardless of which method you may choose to take for this issue, you really want to keep up the treatment well beyond the time period in which the white spots dissapear from the fish. I think the most common reason why people end up reoccuring ich, especially when he or she is not adding new fish that could bring Ich with it, is the fact that they give up or stop treatment too soon. The good thing though is that you have the UV and so if you use it all the time or for a long time (a month or more to be sure), you can help stop the progression or build up of ich on your fish, rid the tank of ich while in the free swimming stages, and almost more importantly, prevent a reoccurance.

I also have to say that I do agree with chitown as far as that information posted on marine ich in that there is not easy fix to the problem and any treatment will have pros and cons. I think I also could have worded things differently when I said 'the best treatments are...' since they are probrably not the best, but better than some other methods.

Here is a good article on marine ich and how it lives and how you can go about ridding your tank of it or preventing it: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Radom · 02-06-2007, 06:46 AM

From what I know about ich is that even after all fish been removed from main tank to a hospital tank if any unhatched larva is present in the main tank it will still be there upon reintroduction of new fish even a month later (unless chemically treated) Once hatched the larva will die in few hours if host not found however if unhatched it will be dormant. One of the methods I found to be working is to remove all fish (infected and uninfected), do a partial waterchange and add some of the water from "healthy" tank containing fish to your infected tank. The purpose is to trick the larva into hatching. Its unproven but speculated by marine biologists that there is some chemical substance thats its released by fish that actually triggers the hatching of ich larva and thats why a dormant larva will hatch once fish are reintroduced to a previously infected tank. Add some of the "good fish water" to the infected tank every couple of days for about a month. Its a lengthly process but it worked in my case (took about 40 days). Also if you have a reef tank some of the previously mentioned chemicals (copper, fermaldahyde etc...) are okay for fish only tanks but can be harmful to your corals in a reef tank.